Forum:Do we really need Sergeants?

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Forums: Yew Grove > Do we really need Sergeants?
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This thread was archived on 23 May 2009 by Calebchiam.

I was looking at our Request for Clan Chat Rank page, and I saw something that caught my eye; users who hold a Corporal Rank (given to "Trusted Users") have the ability to request a Sergeant Ranking via another RfR. (Request for Rank)

There's something wrong here, I think. At the current heirarchy we have right now as far as Ranking goes, a Sergeant would only have the abilty to kick Trusted Users and below (compare: Trusted Users can only kick Friends and below). Now, seriously... is this neccesary?

If a user is given Trusted User status, he or she should be capable to follow the Clan Chat rules and not really needing to be kicked. On top of this, Sergeants are only given the extra ability to kick Trusted Users over the Trusted Users themselves; which, if Trusted Users are expected to not behave appropiately in the Clan Chat, is redundant and really only serves as vanity. In the event that a Trusted User needs to be kicked, an Admin or Crat should be able to do the job just as well.

If a Trusted User cannot be trusted to behave well enough to be allowed to stay in the Clan Chat, he or she should not be given the rank.

Therefore, I propose that we do either of the following (both of which really has the same effect for the time being):

  • 1: Grant any and all trusted users Sergeant Ranks, or
  • 2: Leave any and all trusted users at Corporeal Rank, leaving the Sergeant Rank available for an additional tier in the event that something appropiate for a rank (similiar to when we added Forum Admins) becomes available and adjust the hierarchy accordingly (ie. if the new Wiki position is below a Forum Admin, grant them Sergeant, if it is above Forum Admin, move Forum Admins down to Sergeant and place users in this position in the Lieutenant rank, and so forth).

Please note: Some may consider Sergeant vs. Corperal Ranks the same way as Bureaucrats vs. Admins: This is not the case, as in this case there are higher powers that have the ability to remove Trusted Users from the situation. --Beware the underrated. Pikaandpi Berserker Fury!Hit hard or go home. 14:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose- People change, you never know if someone decides that they're all of a sudden angry with us for some reason. Leave it how it is. -- 15:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Once again, in the event that a Trusted User were to ever go rogue, an Admin or Crat would be more than likely be able to take care of the situation. --Beware the underrated. Pikaandpi Berserker Fury!Hit hard or go home. 15:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, captains can only kick lieutenants (who are also assumed to be trusted) and below, so is the captain rank necessary? And what about the general rank?  Tien  18:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The captain and general ranks indicate that the player is an admin/bureaucrat on the wiki, which is useful extra information. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 18:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I know, I was just asking Pika what he thought. :P  Tien  18:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, an admin or 'crat won't always be there. -- 18:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
If they aren't, and a trusted user starts acting up, a post on RS:AR for one to come online could be done. Or have a gander at recent changes, and see what admins/'crats are recently active, and ask them on their talk to come and have a look in. Either should work.
I'm leaning towards support for this, the extra rank seems a bit unneeded. I'd say trusted users as Sergeant, as this allows for lower ranks that could come in useful at wikifests etc, allowing trusted users to be able to kick but the event-only ranks not to be (unless they're already a higher rank). If a new middle-ground wiki user group level arrives (i.e. greater than rollback but less than sysop/forum admin) then a rank reshuffle can happen when and if that happens. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 19:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Just something to think about in regards to Ranking Event organizers: It does appear that the Recruit Rank (which doesn't appear to have kicking powers, although I'm not 100% sure) is available; we could always use that Rank for non-ranked users that are involved in Events like the WikiFest (there's been an idea brought up in the Summer Fest Thread about restricting speaking in the Clan Chat to Ranks during the Fest so that messages from Fest Organizers aren't flooded out, which this could solve...) --Beware the underrated. Pikaandpi Berserker Fury!Hit hard or go home. 14:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Support - I see no reason why you would kick corporal if they happened to be trusted by users already. Even if they changed and are being abusive/immature/etc, we can just remove their powers. Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 01:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC) Vote changed, checked the bottom.Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 23:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - All this seregant thing does is make a bunch of busywork for the wiki, which, ultimately, detracts from the production of the encyclopedia. Butterman62 (talk) 01:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Support - Yeah, it is kinda pointless having trusted users outrank trusted users. I kinda just threw it out because it was something different, but I have no issue with changing it.

Bonziiznob Talk

02:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Support - per everything above, and also per RS:AEAE. We only have ranks so it's possible to kick people... they are a neccessary evil. No need spread it. Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 03:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Support - the entire reason that we ranked people that aren't sysops/b'crats is because we needed more kickers to watch over the chat. This doesn't mean that some "trusted users" should be given the ability to kick other "trusted users". I think that all trusted users should be corporals (no offense intended towards any sergeants out there). Andrew talk 05:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Support - I say we change all trusted user ranks to the one with three bars so that two bars can be given to those that win contests.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stelercus (talk).

Contests? Why should those who win contests get the privilege to kick? Are you referring to RfCorporal? White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 11:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  06:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Support - Keeping as flat of heirarchy as possible supports RS:AEAE. The whole point of this was to get some more trusted users beyond admins, kicking powers. One rank accomplishes that. Two ranks might lead to unnecessary one-upsmanship or something. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 17:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all. Ryan PM 00:44, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose Per dave lopo, We should keep this in-case someone gets angry also to avoid feuds ect.-- Defence Waterkunai1 Talk # fluffy bunniesArmadyl symbol.png 20:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Support per all. We don't need an extra rank to have kicking powers. I could easily kick/derank any "rogue" Corporals. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 11:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment and Oppose - I want to let you know that Corporals can no longer kick due to C teng's recent changes to the Clan chat. Sergeants are now able to kick. So now, in my opinion, do we need sergeants now? Yes. =) Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 12:14, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Do we now need corperals ? No. Without any ways of removing people causing trouble, there is no point in the corp rank as we may aswell be normal, unranked users. Karis Talk to me 18:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Indeed. The focus of the discussion now changes to the Corperals. As far as I'm concerned, we should bump them up to the Sergeant Rank, but not change the ranks of any existing Sergeants (save for (Forum)Admin/Crat ship) --Beware the underrated. Pikaandpi Berserker Fury!Hit hard or go home. 14:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment Per powers.-- Defence Waterkunai1 Talk # fluffy bunniesArmadyl symbol.png 22:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Support Per all. FredeTalk 19:41, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Archive Well im lagging a bit here so I suggest to archive this?-- Defence Waterkunai1 Talk # fluffy bunniesArmadyl symbol.png 15:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment - It seems now that the only changes that need to be made is the changing of all corporal ranks to sergeant ranks. Either that, or lower the minimum rank to kick (back to corporal). C.ChiamTalk 15:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Aye, but the question is whether or not we've achieved at least general consenus. We have a few opposes right now (Tien's tone seems to point towards oppose though he hasn't said so forthright, and I think Powers changed because the focus is now on the Corporeals and he believes that I still mean Sergents). That, and we really should decide on what course of action to take if this is considered agreed upon; See my comment above about how which rank Trusted Users are given could effect growth down the line. --Beware the underrated. Pikaandpi Berserker Fury!Hit hard or go home. 19:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I think Tienjt's comment need not be counted as an oppose. I'm quite sure he would have said so himself if he was opposing. With these changes, the reason Powers is opposing could be considered void. Which comment are you referring to? C.ChiamTalk 03:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok...Let me make it clearer.=S I meant like either we make corporals kick or make all corporal users become sergeant. I see no point being a corporal who cannot kick to regulate chat. I might as well be a regular user to let C teng's friend list have an extra available spot. Hope that clears it up a bit.Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 00:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Per Calebchiam. --Quest point cape detail.png Brux Talk 16:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Support I support the "Grant any and all trusted users Sergeant Ranks." That seems simplest and accomplishes what we had originally hoped to do by giving a rank to trusted members in the first place. Horsehead Talk 13:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


I propose that all trusted users with the corporal rank be bumped up to the sergeant rank. All future RfRs will be for the sergeant rank. If anyone has any immediate valid objections, please raise them now. As to the users opposing because they believe that the users might go rogue, this can and may happen for all ranks and does not apply to corporals alone and is thus invalid. C.ChiamTalk 13:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

And naturally, kicking powers will be given to users that have the sergeant rank and above. C.ChiamTalk 13:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - This is the most ideal course of action in my eyes. This will also, as a nice side effect, leave Corperal and Recruit Ranks available in the future, and gives us a bit of room to expand in the heirarchy (for example, in the Summer Wikifest Thread, it was once brought up about giving all Fest Mods Ranked status for the fest and restricting chat for anyone below to prevent important messages from being flooded out). One small change to the proposal, though, which I believe you simply overlooked; obviously, kicking powers would be given to Sergeants and above. --Beware the underrated. Pikaandpi Berserker Fury!Hit hard or go home. 13:46, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Added. C.ChiamTalk 13:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support Per Pikaandpi. Horsehead Talk 13:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per above. Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 13:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Perfecto. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 20:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - again, per RS:AEAE. Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 21:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Pikaandpi. If this is unsucessful, I propose all corpoals are demoted to normal users, as the position has no real point in existing without being able to remove disruptive players. Karis Talk to me 21:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Pika and Doucher4000. Statistics.png Lvl 3 skils3 Choice! Talk~ Holiday Signup ~Hiscores 21:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Why have a trusted user be able to kick another trusted user? I feel that we should just get rid of the Corporal rank if it is not going to be given kicking powers, as it disrupts RS:AEAE. ~MuzTalk 23:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all above. --Quest point cape detail.png Brux Talk 22:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Simple as that.Joe Click Here for Awesomeness17:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Pikaandpi and Doucher4000. Ryan PM 21:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Closed - There is consensus to have all corporals bumped up to the sergeant rank. All future RfRs will be for the sergeant rank. C.ChiamTalk 07:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)