Forum:Discontinue Java images from the wiki

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Forums: Yew Grove > Discontinue Java images from the wiki
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This thread was archived on 7 June 2017 by Liquidhelium.

NXT has been available for a little over a year now, with several images having been updated to use the new client, however some images have been getting reverted due to preferred lighting from the Java client. Examples of which includes [[:File:Dung boat.png]] and File:Ullek research camp.png. This is counter-productive as Java is soon to be phased out by Jagex in the near future, meaning that NXT will be the only available client, meaning that at some point the images would have to be retaken anyway.

My main suggestion is that Java images should no longer be uploaded to the wiki and that the Image policy be updated to include NXT's graphical settings. This will help prevent revert wars from occuring over which version of the game would be preferred for several images like the two examples above. Existing Java images that we have can slowly be updated over to NXT over time.


Support - As nominator pjJ4pBM.png Abyssal vine whip.png 15:54, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Support - resistance is futile. the future is inevitable. --Deltaslug (talk) 16:03, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Support - If Java will become obsolete, I don't see much reason to upload images from the client. - Purple partyhat.png Sparky Kitty the WikianFiremaking.png 16:06, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Support - We know that the Java client is going to be phased out, and if we continue uploading Java images it'll just create more work for when we eventually have to retake them.  Dennoh Triangle sandwich detail.png 16:19, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Support - Even if I still kinda hate nxt, things here should (normally) be better than in the java client.1wDmkih.png  Manpaint of the RPU (t)(c) 16:20, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Support - Until such time as there is an announcement that NXT is scrapped entirely (which seems far from the case at the moment), it is better to use NXT images since it distributes the load of retaking images later in the case of Java being scrapped. Outside of significant loss of fidelity, reverting to Java images needlessly impedes this work that, for a majority of players, is the most accurate representation of the game. If NXT is removed it is significantly less work to go back and revert than it will be to pile up a list of images that need retaking as a result of Java being deprecated. Ethaksus (talk) 16:56, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - Some players can't use the NXT client (or won't, but that aside) so it's be unfair to disallow them to upload images. That aside, there is often little difference between NXT and Java. For instance, NPC/monster images are generally equivalent in both modes - the exception is, for instance, when NXT has unremovable LD, in which case Java is preferred, or the use of a daystone; or when Java has lesser texture quality in which case NXT is preferred. For chatheads, Java should always be preferred since lighting and textures are still terrible in NXT chatheads. Basically, decide on a case-by-case basis. Forbidding either Java or NXT would be completely stupid.

The situation is different for inventory icons (NXT is preferred per consensus, so I shall ignore those) and location images. Sometimes, NXT's extended draw distance and better quality of water would make location images better in NXT. However, the examples you listed (and hey thanks for not replying on the topic for days on end, mighty cooperative of ya) are in favour of the opposite. The Dung boat image has extremely dark lighting in NXT at all times, whereas it can be circumvented only in Java - ergo use Java. The point of the image is to show how that place looks and it's obvious that Java is the best mode for that, since it doea not have the annoyingly dark lighting. Ullek ditto and the Water Ravine dungeon image is analogous with shadows. In these cases, it's beyond doubt that Java is superior for these particular images, and disallowing it would be completely silly.

Let's examine Ullek. The latest version was a very dark image using swamp lighting. I went and retook it with normal Ullek lighting. Everyone will agree the subject was more clearly visible etc. You reverted because "the lighting is that dark in NXT" but that's not a reason. Cabbages are also green in NXT, but so what? Again, one should decide on a case-by-case basis whether an image should be taken in Java or NXT. In almost all cases it won't matter but in this one it does, and Java is superior.

If, at some point, Java is eventually discontinued, then no problem. Almost all images in Java, that is NPCs, DIIs, monsters, locations that don't benefit from water or draw distance, need not be retaken per the argument above - their images would benefit absolutely nothing from being retaken in Java since they should look identical (bar a few exceptions; UCS). But Java is still supported, so we should take advantage of it to use for images that look better in Java than NXT (e.g. Ullek).

Summing up, there is very little point in disallowing Java. In most cases, there is no difference between and thus no preference for either Java or NXT (NPCs, DIIs, etc.). Sometimes, however, there's a preference for NXT (inventory icons, draw distance stuff, etc.) and sometimes for Java (Ullek, dung boat, etc.) which should be decided by common sense on case-by-case basis. It would quite plainly be a bad decision to 'outlaw' Java since it doesn't matter in most cases, and in the relatively few instances that it does, just tag a Java image that would benefit from NXT features, or an NXT image that would look better in Java, and someone'll retake it. That, and if you want to discontinue Java images, you'd have to retake almost every single image we have now, which is a colossal amount of work with little benefit because there's no difference in most cases. And in a few select cases, Java looks better, so you'd be intentionally making images worse. We don't want that do we.

Tldr: Java and NXT are equivalent in most cases and when they're not, use common sense. Disallowing something is always a bad measure. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 19:46, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Addendum; at the risk of repeating myself, to specifically respond to "meaning that NXT will be the only available client, meaning that at some point the images would have to be retaken anyway" - that's false, since it doesn't make a difference for most images. This proposal would only harm the wiki since it would prevent some editors from being able to upload images (which is bad), it would enforce a restriction that is completely unnecessary for most images (bad), and it would require people to go retake images when it makes no difference (bad) and even when Java is better (bad), such as with the given examples. The images in which NXT is better have almost all already been retaken, so, essentially, there is no problem at the moment that needs solving. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 20:05, May 27, 2017 (UTC)
Just a comment: as far as I know, the dark lighting in Ullek camp area is present both in Java and in NXT. If so, then image of the wiki should also have dark lighting. The purpose of the image is to represent how the game looks, not how we think it should look. Brighter lighting doesn't show the subject better - this isn't an image of an object, like NPC or item, but an image of location/scenery and thus the lighting is actually also the subject. I realise there are instances where the images are too dark or where lighting changes because the orb's camera had to be moved into another area to get better shot, but Ullek doesn't fall here - the area has dark lighting, so be it. In my opinion everything in the image is perfectly visible, it's not like it's pitch black or anything. Area is dark regardless of the client, so I don't see how being able to purposefully modify the lighting proves that Java version is better. As I said, lighting (or lack of it) is important in case of object/NPC images, scenery/locations should be left as they are looking in game, even if it may seem as too dark to someone (which is subjective anyway). As for general discussion, I agree that banning Java images doesn't accomplish anything, up to date Java image is better than outdated/missing image, but preferably all should be taken in NXT at some point (unless the difference is really unnoticeable).--Mariobaryla (talk) 23:12, May 27, 2017 (UTC)
The camp area uses dark swamp lighting in both settings, but you can move a few steps west or north to get the brighter Ullek LD - this doesn't work in NXT, though, since the camera changes back to dark lightning once you move it. I also disagree that better lighting does not show the subject better - the image is much clearer with less dark lighting, and that's still the lighting used in that area (a few steps away from the actual fire), there wasn't any 'hacking' involved. In the case of Java vs NXT, both modes represent how the game looks - in that case, if one is aesthetically better than the other, we should pick one of them. In the case of draw distance stuff, that'd be NXT - but in Ullek's case, it should be Java. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 07:08, May 28, 2017 (UTC)
The area in the subject uses dark lighting - the image should use the lighting from the area depicted, regardless of the client. Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 08:43, May 28, 2017 (UTC)
Even if you can get lighting that makes the image much more, well, visible, by standing ten squares outside the camp? I pontifically disagree. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 09:15, May 28, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose-ish - While I agree with the general sentiment of the proposal, I'm hesitant to outright ban Java images. I would support some clause that says that between NXT and Java images with equivalent content, the NXT image will be preferred. This should solve the edit war issue, while also not limiting users if they legitimately only have Java to use and want to contribute new content. I think that all of us would prefer to have a Java image if the alternative is no image. --LiquidTalk 20:21, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with Java being used as a temporary image until someone can replace them at some point with an NXT image, as long as the reverts over lighting preference ends with NXT being the more suitable image overall. pjJ4pBM.png Abyssal vine whip.png 20:28, May 27, 2017 (UTC)
Did you even read what I said? Most Java images - by far - do not need replacing at all, since their subject is invariant under Java/NXT (e.g. NPCs, DIIs) and reverts over lighting preference should end with the more suitable image being the more suitable image, and not NXT "just because". For instance, in the examples you gave, Java is better, one really cannot argue otherwise. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 20:46, May 27, 2017 (UTC)
NXT/Java is an objective, technical reason to change a piece of content. I don't see how your opinion of shading differences making Java better, is objective in any way, such that "one cannot argue otherwise". I can just as easily argue that Java is outdated and in the process being deprecated. That is a fact that has been stated by Jagex. Ethaksus (talk) 21:22, May 27, 2017 (UTC)
See reply above. The point is that the brighter image is clearer, simply because it's not as very very dark, that's what I meant. Since it isn't an inventory image and Java and NXT are a priori equally valid, use common sense to decide which to use, if it matters. In this case, it does matter, and in this case, I'd find it extremely difficult indeed to argue that Java isn't better. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 07:08, May 28, 2017 (UTC)
I think we disagree on what is better; you seem to define "better" as "brighter", considering your FIMG opposes, while Tony/Ben/other people believe accuracy is better. Bringing in lighting from somewhere else does not accurately show what a location looks like when you're standing there, and the forum that was just closed specifies using the default skybox. --Iiii I I I 18:30, May 28, 2017 (UTC)
It also specifies "Common sense should be used to handle exceptions on a case-by-case basis," which this arguably falls under. "Accuracy" should not trump clarity and usefulness. JacerPPC (talk) 22:58, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

Support - To clarify, this is a support for preferring NXT images over Java where possible (which means not undoing NXT image uploads that replace Java ones). It would be the same sort of ideology we have for images that lack anti-aliasing, or need to be retaken. We use the images that are there until a better one comes along - in that instance, one with anti-aliasing or whatever was needed - in this instance, retaken with the NXT client. There's not going to be an "outright ban" on Java images like some comments above are assuming - I think it is merely a discouragement and a request for an individual to replace the Java image with one taken inside NXT at a later date. jayden 21:20, May 27, 2017 (UTC)

Support - Per Jayden User talk:ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of User talk:ThePsionic ThePsionic Special:Contributions/ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of Special:Contributions/ThePsionic 09:06, May 28, 2017 (UTC)

Support - Per Jayden, perhaps we could create a category under Category:Images needing to be retaken similar to Category:Java item inventory images but a more generic one for all images. (or even just have it so all java images should have be put under the retaken category) Superiosity the WikianQuick chat button.png : Hey mate 10:35, May 28, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - As a follow-up to my approval above, I'd just like to state that we already have parts in RS:IMG that discourage uploading images with certain faults, such as {{sd}} and {{AA}}. We could just as easily have a similar template for this proposal:

Game Client icon.png
This animation or image was taken using the Java client.
The image should be retaken in the newer NXT client to meet the RuneScape Wiki's images and media policy.
{| class="messagebox file"
| width="40px" | [[File:Game Client icon.png|35px|center|link=]] || '''This animation or image was taken using the [[Java]] client.'''<br clear="all" /><div style="font-size:0.85em; line-height:1.4em">The image should be retaken in the newer [[NXT]] client to meet the RuneScape Wiki's [[RS:IMG#Java_and_NXT|images and media policy]].</div>
|}{{Fileonly|[[Category:Images taken in the Java client]]}}<noinclude>{{/doc}}</noinclude>

The template should add a category like Images taken in the Java client, which could itself be a sub-category of Category:Images needing to be retaken. This is an easy way of maintaining this, and allowing users with the ability to run NXT (which is a fair few) to update the image at a later date. As said before, this is no different to our other maintenance templates and policies for older versions of graphics and clients. A quote from our policy regarding standard detail images:

All images should be taken in HD graphics. Existing images which are not in HD graphics mode should be tagged with the {{sd}} template unless they are historical images.

Things to take away from this: we will be able to state that images should be taken in the NXT client, those that don't should be tagged with the template, and historical images will be excluded. This is a really simple solution. Discouraging the upload of images that are taken in Java does not mean that we won't allow them to be uploaded. They'll just be used until a better version exists. Again, this is no different to the way we treat images that say, have aliasing issues.

I think what I've wrote is more or less what is being requested of this thread in the first place, just expanded on in a little more detail and clarified. jayden 16:37, May 28, 2017 (UTC)

That would make sense for images that actually require NXT - e.g. an image of a town that only shows half of it due to limited draw distance. However, for most images by far, which includes all NPCs, monsters and DIIs but also most locations, namely the ones that don't benefit from draw distance and don't feature water, there is literally no need to retake them. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 05:34, May 29, 2017 (UTC)
This template should be added to all Java images with the exception of NPCs, interactive/non-interactive scenery images, and DIIs. So basically everything with no expectation for transparency to be added.Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 17:46, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - per Liquid's reasoning. I don't see a reason to ban java nor am I convinced it's entirely enforceable. cqm 17:45, 28 May 2017 (UTC) (UTC)

Yeah, I see now that disallowing Java images isn't exactly the best way to go about this revert war issue over lighting, with Liquid's suggestion being the appropriate action to take. pjJ4pBM.png Abyssal vine whip.png 18:11, May 28, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - Seconding virtually everything Fswe1 said. JacerPPC (talk) 22:58, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - As per Fswe1. Additionally, does Three Revert Rule not apply to images as well? If it doesn't, it should. Pikachu lv95 (talk) 00:18, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - per Fswe1. Also, is NXT even considered a finished product? If there's a change in, say, lighting, that creates more work again. 5-x Talk 22:08, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Support - Per Jayden and others. Different skyboxes in a particular region are intentional atmospheric effects. Changing them for brightness at the cost of accuracy for a scenic image which is supposed to be representative of one's experience in that particular area is unnatural. Scenery should use its natural lighting, and for single-subject images, we have the use of the Daystone and custom skyboxes. I've reuploaded several images (mostly DII/NPC/worn equipment) under the context of NXT and have not run into issues with others except with a minor remark regarding the only differences being lighting. Okay, well how about the fact that there were some images that hadn't been updated since 2011? Don't forget that we have a lot of old images that would benefit from being retaken in NXT by virtue of them being newer and probably larger too.  Panjy16  15:17, June 1, 2017 (UTC)

Support - having a preference for NXT images over Java images. As others have pointed out, an outright ban on Java images would be unfair on some people who are unable to use NXT. I'd say we could use common sense on a case by case basis, but that isn't really working right now as reverting and squabbling over NXT "issues" like lighting still keeps coming up. Having a consensus on NXT being preferred will hopefully stop that. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 21:09, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Closed - Images on the wiki will preferentially be taken in the NXT client. Java images that can be retaken (i.e. not historical) should be tagged with {{Java image}}. The cases in which Java images should not be reverted should be limited to maintenance-related issues, such as lack of transparency in the NXT version. Materially equivalent images should use the NXT version. --LiquidTalk 16:53, June 7, 2017 (UTC)