Forum:Disallow Java images on the wiki
It's been nearly two years since we establishing a preference for images to be taken in the NXT client rather than the Java client (previous discussion: Forum:Discontinue Java images from the wiki). We have also since clarified exactly what image settings should be used for taking images in NXT (Forum:Updating RS:IMG).
Despite this there are still times where editors do not agree that an NXT version of an image should be used over a Java one. These kind of disagreements are a waste of editors' time and efforts that could be better spent improving the wiki. As established by previous discussions, the consensus of the community is to use NXT images as much as possible to prepare for the point down the line when the Java client is discontinued.
I am therefore proposing that we put an end to the ambiguous situation regarding NXT/Java image preference and update RS:IMG to state that images taken in the Java client should not be used on the wiki. In other words: the only situations where use of a Java image would be acceptable would be in the case of historical images that it is no longer possible to update and in situations where there is not yet an image on the wiki. In the second situation, the Java image should be tagged using and replaced with an NXT client image. In all other situations where an NXT image is already in existence, regardless of quality defects/need for retaking, replacing with a Java image would not be acceptable. Again, editors would use to indicate whatever flaw should be addressed in an NXT retake.
Support - for reasons as set out in thread.22:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Support - As I'm sure I've said before, we should be using images that represent what things in the game look like for the majority of players. It has been 3 years since the introduction of NXT and most of the playerbase use it. jayden 22:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Support -22:48, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Support -23:00, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Support -23:05, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Neutral - Is it really that big of a deal in cases such as NPC and item images, where the only differences between Java and NXT will be slight differences that the average user isn't going to notice anyway? A "NXT is always preferable to Java" policy has potential for abuse, such as a low settings NXT image being prioritised over a max settings java one, or a tiny NXT one over a large java one, ect. What about cases where it's difficult to get a decent quality NXT image due to clipping issues that are only present when using the Orb of Oculus? Would the non-glitchy Java one not be more accurate to what players would normally see? What about cases where things render correctly in NXT, such as transparent textures used by things such as spirit trees? One answer would be "use common sense" but the entire reason this discussion is happening is because one user has a differing definition of "common sense" to Isobel.23:40, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- To be clear, all of the examples you give would not be accepted in the update I'm proposing for the image policy. I feel that the current policy should have resolved all disputed situations acceptably, and allows for the use of common sense in cases like the ones you have mentioned, but unfortunately it is not working out that way in practice. Luckily I actually can't recall times where an editor has taken a top quality Java image to replace low quality NXT image. The vast majority of our editors have chosen to move to using NXT so I don't think that taking a harder stance is really going to affect the quality of our images. 17:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Neutral - There are currently instances where an article can be better represented through a file taken from the Java-based client. There is still no consistency between settings required for NXT imagery. We disallowed bloom but it has yet to be pushed into the current image policy for non-landscape or area images. We still do not have a policy or discussion on the site about how to utilize the skybox and filters changes over the past few months to eliminate the existing filters that an NPC or object are only normally visible in such as Lucien (2018 Hallowe'en event). Until such a time is that the Java client is removed from usage to the playerbase, there isn't a compelling reason at this moment to prevent the upload of Java-based imagery. I don't oppose this as an idea, but it should be followed by a extensive thread and implementation of the highest quality representations of in-game content. - Ryan PM 03:22, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- I feel like the thread I linked above (Forum:Updating RS:IMG) set out the standards for taking images feel enough, and that was also followed up by a guide on taking images (Help:Editing/Taking images). I'm not sure what else needs to be clarified? 17:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Support -07:35, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment Opposing the deletion of said images because of their use, current or Future, on Graphical Updates page. We should make it clear in this policy that they are meant to be renamed to contain the "old" suffix and kept around. Supporting the use of NX over Java in mainspace articles.13:25, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Support - agree with pretty much everything. NXT should always be preferred, existing java images can stay until they're eventually replaced.03:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - Based on Ryan's comments I don't think the proposal does enough. I also question whether readers care in the cases where there are issues with the NXT version of the image. I'd much rather see a thread that sets out the expected settings and environment for NXT, including some guidance for advanced settings, along with the known drawbacks and limitations of the client. When faced with these limitations, and when Java produces an objectively better image, then I don't really see a problem with using it. If we can't agree that the Java image is better, then it is clearly not objectively better and therefore the NXT image should be used instead.
I agree that we should be trying to use NXT in an ideal world, but I don't see a reason to outright ban them because one user is gaming the system to push their point of view. As that's the case, why is the problem deemed to be in the policy rather than the user? cqm talk 09:37, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Very sad support - I really don't like the idea of outright banning any type of image since I like having nice-looking images. Personally I would rather have images that look nice even if they aren't the default look ingame, since we have a bunch of different options for how the game appears between detail settings, brightness settings, and skyboxes anyway that I don't think we can really call any one appearance how something would appear for the majority of players. (Note that this doesn't really apply to Java vs NXT for me since I honestly cannot tell the difference in >90% of cases.) I don't mind fiddling with settings to make something appear brighter or clearer, for example.
That being said, given the conflict that Java images have caused, much of it unnecessary, I have to reluctantly support this, as I believe it is the simplest way to end the conflict. The amount of time that has been spent on this issue has been excessive. I can't really think of any other good way to set the rules in an unambiguous fashion that will not result in future disagreement. It sucks that shitty NXT images may take longer to be replaced but that's probably the lesser of two evils at this point. I should mention that I don't think this solution can be repeated ad infinitum (that is, if future issues arise regarding, say, brightness settings, I'd be hesitant to mandate some specific brightness level), for the purpose of Java images I think this is probably the least worst option we have. --LiquidTalk 22:29, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - In some cases, images taken in the Java client should be used on the wiki. The prime example would be when the object depicted has a glitched appearance due to a fault in the NXT client. Examples include all items with specular textures (such as inferno adze, primal weapons, for example primal 2h sword, blood necklaces, gems, etc.), environments with old lava texture stretching (for example in Gu'tanoth) or skybox glitches (for example at incandescent colony). Until these are corrected, replacing Java images with their NXT versions is not an option. 5-x Talk 11:11, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Support - While I do agree that some pictures are still objectively better in the Java client, players are moving over to NXT, where even though the image would be glitched, it would still be more accurate to what the average user would see over the Java version. From what I can see, this conversation ultimately isn't about quality, but about what's more accurate to what people see in-game, even if it means having pictures of glitched or discolored objects. Badassiel (talk) 22:08, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Support - Guh, It's one of those odd things with the addition of the whole "One Small Edit" concept that we should keep Java images open for the newer editors, however the entire thing is that we strive to provide good, quality images at the best of our ability. It's a bit of the whole "Good or Lawful" debacle in this but I gotta side with support.21:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Closed - The proposal will be adopted. Java images cannot replace an NXT image on the wiki regardless of any objective or subjective flaws in the NXT image. The only cases where a Java image may be used are for historical images where a NXT image has not or cannot be taken, and for new updates for which NXT images have not yet been taken (these should be tagged for retaking). RS:IMG will be updated accordingly. --LiquidTalk 17:53, 19 March 2019 (UTC)