Forum:Different languages in CC

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This thread was archived on 13 December 2009 by Butterman62.

As the previous thread came to nothing, I have decided to start it up again.

I am proposing that we can speak any languages we want in the Clan, One time, Me and Frede where talking to each other in a different language but in the midle of it was another user... We were talking in that other language for atleast 10 minutes without anyone stopping us. I am not going to name other users but they said I will report you both for speaking in different languages if you don't stop or something along that lines.

Any comments?

Liam - Beta Tester (talk) 17:02, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Support As suggester Liam - Beta Tester (talk) 17:02, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - As a matter of social etiquette, I find it rude and inconsiderate when somebody who is clearly multi-lingual to be speaking in a language other than that of the majority of those who are engaged in the conversation. And yes, I've been in many situations where the clear "majority" was not English, so don't mistake this as being a bigot here or explicit prejudice against non-English speakers. Yes, this has exceptions and is a guideline rather than a requirement. If somebody comes into the clan chat with a clear difficulty in writing English and requests assistance in another language that perhaps somebody on the clan chat can use, sure, use that person's language and offer obvious assistance as necessary. Be friendly and helpful, but don't abuse it either. Writing in Klingon as a means to send a "coded" conversations is more of what I'm suggesting is a bad idea. If you want to "practice" sending messages in another language, do it as private messages or use another clan chat. There are plenty of folks who use our clan chat that English is their only language that we shouldn't be keeping them out of the conversation simply due to their lack of multi-lingual capabilities or because some people want to show off. --Robert Horning 18:01, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per Robert ‎20px‎AtlandyBeer.png 18:02, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • What Robert said (oppose) - Most people in the clan chat speak English as their primary (and often only) language. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  20:17, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per what I said on the last thread and what Robert just said. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:53, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I agree with Robert. If you feel the need to have a conversation in a language other than English, then you should hold it in another clan chat, such as your own. I don't mind the occasional phrase in a different language though.  Tien  21:08, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per Robert and the points made in the last thread. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 21:48, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per Robert. It is simply disruptive and somewhat rude. Prayer.png Jedi Talk HS Log Tracker Summoning.png 22:00, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Tentative oppose I speak a little French, and sometimes use French phrases for fun in the cc (I hope that no one else feels I am excluding them in doing this). I happily translate anything that other users don't understand. The trouble with having more than one language in the cc is that it can be divisive, and exclude people who don't speak that language from the conversation. English is the de facto standard language (at least until Esperanto becomes more popular), and since the wiki is mainly in English, most people in the cc will be fairly familiar with it. If people are not confident with English, they shouldn't be shy in case they make minor mistakes - I am sure that most people in the cc are patient, understanding and helpful with anyone who is making the effort to try. As much as I hate to split the wiki community up, if there is enough for demand for other languages, we could have other clan chat accounts for them, for example, R S Wikia Fr for French. But I think there should be an expectation that people in the official clan chat for the English wiki should know and use English primarily. Leevclarke talk Max_logo_mini.png bulldog_puppy.png 23:40, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per Robert Twig Talk 772kZGs.png 23:44, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
    Comment - Leeveclark, using phrases is a lot different that if users speak completely in another language. Prayer.png Jedi Talk HS Log Tracker Summoning.png 00:47, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
  • Support If I don't know what they are saying, guess what? I ignore them. Its real easy. Now maybe it isn't the politest thing to do but it in no way hurts others. And diversity is something we should embrace, not discourage. Yes, I do know very very well what it is like ingame and in real life in countless situations where I do not understand what the people around me are saying, but that is MY problem to fix, not those speaking. Nothing is stopping any of you from learning any language you care to. Nothing at at all. Don't take out your lack of willingness to accomplish something on those who already have done so. That is disgusting. And what many of you are also missing is that when English is NOT your primary language, you often can not communicate your ideas/thoughts as clearly, its a definitely messed up crazy language. Speaking in ones primary tongue allows that clearer concept to be expressed much cleaner and the way they want it to.--Degenret01 01:03, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Here is a chance for the wiki to say "We are not intolerant of differences". Can we rise up that high?--Degenret01 01:16, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

I have been able to learn another language to a degree that my thoughts and cultural context are in that language... and have been mistaken as a "native" of that culture. It is not a lack of willingness to learn another language, of which I've learned one additional language in similar detail and have studied in depth at least four others, including all "official" languages of the United Nations. I am also published with a major textbook company as having produced a language learning supplement to a mass-produced high-school foreign language textbook. This has nothing to do with prejudice against non-English speakers and everything to do with respect for your peers. Yes, I am sympathetic about folks who speak other languages as a native tongue, but this does have everything to do with a common language. Perhaps if you want to wait until some other language becomes the dominant language in the world like Mandarin Chinese (and you thought English was screwy) we can discuss that as a target language. I wouldn't mind having some extra-patient folks even giving language instruction on the clan chat. Still, regardless of what "lingua franca" is most common, it still is a sign of respect to use a language that the majority of those involved with the conversation can use between each other. The context of this clan chat will be mostly using English as that language. This isn't intolerance, but rather being inclusive to everybody in the community. Using another language, you are by design excluding others from the conversation. That is what I call intolerance. --Robert Horning 01:30, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
I can't disagree with your points, but I am wondering if you spend much tme in the CC. A few sentences in another language are generally the most that ever happens, and that is casually dismissed. Our people are courteous enough to go along with English for the most part. They understand that is the thing to do. But if we disallow the other languages, then some people will kick the first time someone says "hola". There is too much literal mindedness about rules and we need to avoid putting any more of them in place that simply are not needed. The speaking of other languages is not really an issue, and by officially allowing them the problem will not grow. And btw, I've only been told English is hard, it is totally normal to this New Yorker Lol --Degenret01 02:17, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
I'm not necessarily asking that we completely "ban" use of languages other than English, and I think it is a bad thing to simply kick somebody for saying something like "hola", "aloha", or "guten tag". What I'm suggesting is that somebody who is persistent in using another language when clearly they can use English that they should be politely asked to use English, and if they are being jerks about it, then kick them. This proposal is to open the clan chat wide open for all languages simultaneously at any time for any reason. I think that has as many problems as simply kicking folks for dropping a couple of words from another language. --Robert Horning 19:53, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Rswfan and degen. The LAST thing we need is to split or restrict part of our community. We are trying to extend a hand to users of the chat and yet we are trying to prevent them from speaking in the language they are most comfortable. If we don't understand we can translate with Babblefish, Google translate and countless other translators, or better yet just ask them ourselves. - TehKittyCatTalk Wikian-Book 01:26, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

And in the case of rule breaking: assume good faith. - TehKittyCatTalk Wikian-Book 01:28, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Changed to Support - Per Cat Twig Talk 772kZGs.png 01:29, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per cat and all above Hello71 02:03, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Emphatic oppose - While ordinarily I'd support an initiative such as this, there's a huge problem with moderation. Lets say two people are talking in Swahili. One of the participants also speaks English, and says "The other guy is cursing at me, can you kick him?" I don't know if he really is or not. I can't waste time looking up everything he said to see if it was offensive or not. I also can't type accents at any speed. Furthermore, and most importantly, people use slang on the internet. I speak French and I know for a fact that an online translator won't do you one iota of good when someone's speaking French internet slang. Koi29! PDR! Did I just swear at you? Maybe! And good luck finding out! The point is, we can't moderate effectively in a multilingual environment. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 02:10, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Koi29? My best french might be "Je suis un idiot dans le francais" but I'm pretty sure that's not french.
I assure you, it is. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 02:16, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Last time I opposed but I have had a bit of a change of heart. It isn't fair to censor what people say just because you lack the proper knowledge to understand it. Andrew talk 03:14, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Support - People should be allowed to speak in another language, what next? are we gonna block people for using leet? Ruud (talk)(Suggest me naems) 09:46, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Andrew/Soldier. BTW, we've got this thing called an ignore list. FredeTalk 20:17, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Support - English isn't superior just because it's the majority. I don't see how you could be bothered by this; it's just as much spamming as two conversations in the same Clan Chat channel is. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 20:49, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Weak Support - I agree a little with Psycho... Makxtrl Talk 20:55, December 1, 2009 (UTC) Support (per degen) I've been in a situation when a user was happily displaying his new found lingual abilities..then was told to shut up, and I was berated for defending the user. --Akthanakos camel chathead.png Karimabuseer Talk Azzanadra ghost.png 22:47, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Keep other languages in the CC to a non-disruptive level.

Yea, now everyone can debate "what is the point at which it becomes disruptive?" Most of us have a level of maturity and understanding that this isn't an issue, and fortunately I believe that applies to those with kick abilities. If everyone on both sides (those speaking and those not understanding the other language) keep respect for others as a high priority then this should not be an issue. A little leniency can go a long way as long as it doesn't get abused. Get it? Don't abuse it and all can be fine. We can and should focus on real topics and having fun, not trying to nitpick over whether some one grazed bent or committed the tiniest of infractions. If they get seriously broke, yea great kick them. For the rest, just be courteous, patient, don't be a tool or a jerk and that is really the only rule we should have. People know when they are crossing the line, some just like to pretend to deny it because they are trolls. Kick them, not the good folks.--Degenret01 02:31, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

I would support something like "Phrases in foreign langaunges can be used occasionally, but users must be prepared to give a translation if anyone requests it." kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 02:35, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I'm all fine with people speaking however they want. But, sometimes we need to realize that the clan chat was made for the English Wiki. I think a conversation can continue on with any other language, just as long it is not disrespecting to anyone. Just as Robot said above, if an English translation is asked, it should try to be given. A translation shouldn't always be requested, as we should all assume that what they are talking about is within the rules, both Jagex's rules, and the clan chat rules These can be found at RS:CC. So basically, allow multi-lingual chats, just as long as they do not get disrespectful. If a translation is requested, the players should try their best to make one. ~MuzTalk 02:51, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I think that this would be the best course of action for the whether to kick people in other languages problem: "player a" and "player b" are talking in Flemish when "player a" says that "player b" said in Flemmish that he hates all Australians. Instead of kicking "player b" since it is just one persons word against another, the infallible user known as Evil "boy wonder" Yanks says "Player a, you should add him to your ignore list then report him if it is bad enough. I am not willing to kick him currently since I personally have no idea what he said and whether it was insulting. He can't offend anyone in Flemish since nobody will be able to understand him, so by you ignoring him we are replicating him being kicked without kicking him." Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 05:32, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - When the entire chatbox is consumed by another language and few can participate in the conversation, it has gone too far. I don't mind little comments in another language in small quantities when it is just for fun, or replacing common words like "hello", "yes", "Thanks", with another language. People should not be writing out complex thoughts in another language as the majority of the cc cannot understand it, and that is exclusive. As the English branch of the Runescape Wikis, we would not be attracting users who do not speak enough English to read or write for it, thus they could all participate in the cc conversations. I can't think of any good reason to allow people to be using other languages in the cc frequently. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 10:35, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

It's extremely rude and ignorant to censor what we say just because you don't understand it. This is meant in the nicest way possible.....suck it up. If you want to get into this being an English wiki then I will mention RS:NOT. Although the clan chat is used by members of our community, it is NOT the wiki. If you don't like what people are saying then you are more than welcome to leave the chat or ignore us. Andrew talk 16:06, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Support Degenret's idea, Psycho's idea may be needed - Also, Andrew makes great points which I agree with. Society already censors people when they need to say "fuck" or "shit" (ALSDKJFJA UR GROUNDED! NO SWEARING IN THIS HOUSE!), let's not corrupt the world even more to censor OTHER LANGUAGES. That's just ridiculous and rude. Let people talk the way the need and want to talk, who is anyone to say "Ahh u cant talk leik dat cuz i r not hav teh edjumacation to undrstand it derrr"? Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 09:21, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Oli's Proposal

Comment - One time, Hapi and I were talking in Dutch. Then someone asked us to take it to private chat - so we did. I think that this is fair. Talk in any language you like, but if anyone objects and asks you not to, then you should take it to private chat or another CC. It's that simple. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 09:35, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Support Oli - Agreed. Simple. There's no absolute need for it to be in CC, it would be fine in private chat too, therefore, I don't see why anyone wouldn't support Oli. It doesn't bother anyone, and lets people say what needs to be said. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 09:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
Support Oli - That's fair enough. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  21:09, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
Support Oilburb - Sounds like a good compromise. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 21:14, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
Oilburb? OMG! Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:21, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
Support compromise by Oli - This is pretty much what I said earlier. This is common sense and not disruptive, and keeps this as a guideline rather than a hard policy. --Robert Horning 23:16, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Support/comment - as people are thinking of this as a proposal all to itself, I broke it off into its own section. This is a clear compromise, per all. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 13:19, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Request for closure - 6 Supports, 0 Opposes, I think we all agree on such a nice, simple rule. Close? Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:38, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Too soon. If the discussion has died down for several days, then maybe.   az talk   20:42, November 28, 2009 (UTC)
Alright, sorry. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:46, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Support - uncommon sense. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 21:21, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Neutral, leaning towards oppose - Sounds good, but it's possible that whenever you speak in another language, you will be directed to Private Chat. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 20:49, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, if a user has a reasonable objection to one's using other languages, one may be directed to private chat. I think that most users are mature and reasonable enough to not immediately direct foreign-language-users to prive chat. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:11, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Sounds fair to everyone in the chat, but the rule must be enforced--Cheers, Off-hand ascension crossbow.pngYodaAscension crossbow.png 01:52, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Support - People should be able to speak whatever language they want. I find it selfish if people complain about people who are talking in a language they don't understand. There is a nifty little feature Jagex put in Runescape, it's called the IGNORE list. Use it on people typing in different languages if you find it rude/inconsiderate. What's next? Are we going to impose a rule on people saying they must speak with strict proper grammar or they will be banned? Ridiculous. Mining cape (t).png JaydenB Rune pickaxe.png 09:55, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I am not opposing, but I don't think the problem is that people may find it inconsiderate. It is WHAT they are saying. 2 people may be speaking German, one insults the other. The victim tells an admin in English that they are being insulted in German. How is the admin meant to know whether to kick or not? Should they just trust the user that the other guy was swearing in German? Just leave it alone and tell 'em to build a bridge and get over it? Chicken7 >talk 11:50, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

I'd say, ask the offended in private what the other said, then ask the offender what he said. Ask them to stop talking in German. If the offended says that he was offended but the offender says not, go to google and look it up (what he said). If both say yes, kick. If both say no (unlikely), ignore it. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 12:18, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Support I think it's a great idea. Swiz Talk Review Me 15:45, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I think this is a good and bad thing. Theres nothing stopping you from talking diffrent languages in runescape so i think you can speak freely. But if you know a diffrent language then you can speak in it. - SupaWilko

Request for Closure - Nobody has commented in about a week, and consensus is rather clear. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 21:10, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Closed - Talk in any language you like, but if anyone objects and asks you not to, then you should take it to private chat or another clan chat. Butterman62 (talk) 22:47, December 13, 2009 (UTC)