Forum:Dialogue pages

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This thread was archived on 5 July 2010 by Calebchiam.

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I think that a new, long-term project and goal for this Wiki would be to add dialogue pages for all talking NPCs, such as those that we already have for Summoning familiars and Pets. I believe this is a necessary step forward, per the granularity policy. There are currently 2172 NPCs, according to the Category:Non-player characters. This would mean at least that many extra dialogue pages (Subpages that would be linked from the main NPC page with Template:hasdialogue, much like the Summoning familiars and pets are currently. This would likely be the biggest project ever on RS Wiki, so we'd need to take it in small steps. This would mean maybe starting out with NPCs in a certain area, or those in F2P, or all NPCs in a certain quest. If we were to do this, we would need many dedicated users, because this is not something that could just be abandoned. Cook Me Plox 23:42, January 9, 2010 (UTC), Edited with permission of Ppi802

Comment - I assume that this is a proposal, but the way you worded it makes it sound like you're trying to predict the future or something. OMG! Anyway, I think you'll have to be a little more specific. By "main characters", do you mean non-player characters with long histories like the Wise Old Man? Or do you mean characters who may be important but play no major role in the history of RuneScape, like...say, Lanthus, the man who runs Castle Wars? Also, when you say "quests"... do you want to record every word that our character (and other non-player characters) says during them?  Tien  23:08, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Sounds weird. IMO, dialogue pages should only be on pets and Summoning familiars. Fishing.png NnK Oliver (600613) talk 04:12, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - They're not needed. --Nup(T) 07:45, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - That's ridiculous, why would we need that? Miasmic Blitz icon.png Hapi007 Talk! Sign! . 10:23, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Well i do see it been a good idea, it would waste space and theres loads of charcters in runescape. So really i dont think its needed for quests but mabye for charcters, that are special or have a big part of somthing Hunter Supawilko 11:27, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose -Per 600613 Swiz Talk Review Me 13:19, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Maybe, we could make dialogue pages for crucial quest NPC's, as the dialogue said by them is usually missed in the actual game. Ruud (talk)(Suggest me naems) 19:18, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I like the idea. That would make our articles even more complete - we have tons of information about the NPC, and we have its dialogue! I think it's a great idea. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 17:24, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Support - The main idea is how to put this into the wiki. Should this be a sub-page, or should this be something integral to the wiki article itself. Some of the dialogs are quite humorous and do give some details in history of Runescape (from the in-game perspective) that would be worth while to document. The other aspect is that the dialogs can sometimes be quite lengthy as well. I have noticed that some dialogs have been recorded on some quest or NPC articles, and aren't very well linked to the main "parent" article, not to mention there isn't any standardization on where they are located. This idea certainly fits in the spirit of RS:GRAN, and complete documentation of the game would certainly make you think that capturing some of the dialog would be useful. --Robert Horning 20:35, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Support + Comment - We already have two templates to "include" dialogues in NPC/quest articles:

  • Template:Hasdialogue (on the main article)
  • Template:Dialogue (for the subpage)

The dialogue is supposed to be placed in a sub-page called "[article]/dialogue", and linked from the article. See the template documentations for more information on how to use these templates.

Usually, I place a sub-section called "Dialogue" at the end of the article (before the "References" and "See also" sections), and include the [[Template:Hasdialogue|Hasdialogue]] template in this section. The exact placement of the "Dialogue" section is not noted anywhere in the documentation, and is just a rule of thumb I follow.

And, as a reference, here is the link to the previous discussion on dialogues: Forum:Entire Dialog for familiars.   az talk   08:59, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Robert, Azliq and our granularity policy. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  09:55, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Support + Comment - Per granularity policy. If we have music track articles, we should most definitely have dialogue pages. I would think that we would have articles that are subpages of the NPC's page. It would be hard to decide how to do the NPCs whose dialogue sort of works in branches, like your characters gets to choose what to say next, and that affects what the NPC will say back. We'd definitely want to somehow standardize the way it's set up. I spent about 15 minutes recording the dialogue for Hunding, the barbarian historian. Another possible obstacle is in the process of quests (EG Miscellanian citizens have different dialogue based on if you've done Throne of Miscellania. I'll post it on my userpage so we can maybe use that as an example and something to form our standard template. For those who say that it will take a long time, it will. Yet, we can take it in small steps. Do NPCs from certain quests, or all the NPCs in the Warrior's Guild. Just do it bit by bit. Cook Me Plox 08:43, January 9, 2010 (UTC) (forgot to sign in earlier)

Support - What is the best way of setting out the dialouge?? We probably should have a standard way of setting out dialouge pages for simplicity sake. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 01:40, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - On one side, I find that this could be adding to the wiki's vast, collective knowledge. On the other side, it looks like a big project. Prgmbeta 08:47, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I thought the music pages was a big project, but this would be HUGE! Swiz Talk Review Me 10:50, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
What's wrong with big projects? Smile Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 17:39, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Supportish - It seems like a nice addition to the NPC pages. My major concern for allowing it would be that it gets worked on for a bit and then abandoned. If we were to do this, we would need a few editors to step up and say "I'm going to work on this", perhaps as a Wikiguild. It would need some organization and dedication. If enough people are interested, sure go for it. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 17:58, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I think we should do that as it seems like a nice, HUGE, but nice, addition to the NPC/Quest pages, and you can count on me for helping with that(Except for quests as I have them all done already Frown)! Quest point cape detail.png Brux Talk 18:27, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

support-comment-indefinitally a large prodgect but it would be nice to do. Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  15:16, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Support - The project proposer still hasn't answered my question, but I guess I'll support anyway. Question was answered on my talk page. If some hardworking individuals are willing to work on this project, then go for it!  Tien  16:22, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Support - This is certainly interesting, but this project is humongous! It will take a long time to write all that, but it might be well worth it. Tokkul detail.png Inhaps talk 22:26, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral/Comment - I by no means am opposed to having more dialogue pages, however quite frankly there should be realistic requirements for making one or not, take shop keepers for example a few of them just have one or two line(s) of dialogue for them usually being something asking something along the lines of "Do you want to see my shop?" after that either you either accept or decline and either way it usually ends the conversation, not really worth a dialogue page unless you merge all shop keepers together. Korasi's sword.png Archmage Elune  TalkHS Void knight deflector.png fetus is my son and I love him. 07:33, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

All shop keepers have the same name, which is "Shopkeeper", so only one article would be made for all of them. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 07:59, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
Bad choice of words on my part I think, meant any NPC who owns any store and not the shopkeeper NPCs at general stores. For example I remember the lady from the food stop in Yanille had very little dialogue. Korasi's sword.png Archmage Elune  TalkHS Void knight deflector.png fetus is my son and I love him. 10:16, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
But does that make it less notable? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 11:29, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
Kind of my point actually, personally I don't see the need for a whole page for the dialogue of someone who only says one sentence. Korasi's sword.png Archmage Elune  TalkHS Void knight deflector.png fetus is my son and I love him. 12:11, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
Why is someone that says only one important thing less notable than a Miss Schism, who says a lot but nothing important? And how is someone who says only one, non-important thing less notable than either of those? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 17:15, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
<--Resetting before it becomes to hard to read. While true there are NPCs that should not be deserving of a dialogue page, for example in The Temple at Senntisten Azzandra and Dr Nabanik the same NPC and the good doctor has only 2 or so things of dialogue before he revealed his true identity. Another point is Billy and Bob in Garden of Tranquillity who only talk once, with each other, than die, meaning a page for each would be unneeded as they'd be exactly the same. While dialogue pages could be good there are some possible exceptions. Korasi's sword.png Archmage Elune  TalkHS Void knight deflector.png fetus is my son and I love him. 11:27, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Another CommentBefore we start arguing about who will get a dialogue page and who will not, might we worry about how we will format it? As I stated above, my concern is about the branches of dialogue. With the Summoning creatures, there may be multiple conversations possible, but the player has no choice over which one occurs. With most NPCs, however, the player is given a choice of what to say. I call this "branch" dialogue. We would need to find a way to present this on the wiki, without making it look weird. I'll post Hunding's dialogue on my userpage when I get home, and I'll show you what I mean, if you don't understand. When can we get some kind of approval for this?Cook Me Plox 19:20, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

A good point and while it is not perfect I have a possible fix. A possible solution is to indent it as it branches and if the response depends on situations it would again indent (see example) In the example I'll use N to stand for NPC and P for player.
  • N: Hello P how are you?
  • P: Option A: Bad.
  • N: Bad?
  • P: Yes, bad.
  • N: Why if I may ask?
  • P: (if player just died): I died.
  • P: (if player has no money): I'm broke.
  • P: (if nothing bad happened): No reason.
  • P: Option B: Good.
  • N: Good to hear.
Again not perfect but a possible solution. Korasi's sword.png Archmage Elune  TalkHS Void knight deflector.png fetus is my son and I love him. 11:27, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Comment yes we should address that issue. I will be seeing about a good format and putting it on my usserpage. Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  21:56, January 11, 2010 (UTC) It's up my thoughs on a diolage page format are here on my userpage just click my sig to see!  Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  21:56, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Not all NPCs will last forever.... http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3921/thehimmemote.pngGone. 22:10, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Will book transcripts fall under the same rules as dialogue since they are virtually the same thing?? Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 09:59, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support - We start with the quests, like what's already done with Ghostly Robes miniquest, and then we proceed to everything else. The only snag I see is the h u g e amount of work required... As to the potential copyright issues, I think it's better we e-mail Jagex or something, just to be sure. Balance iz powa!4ndrepd TalkContribsStupid monkeys actually have a use...Jump to the God Wars II! 11:03, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

comments

By 'book', do you mean Betrayal at Falador? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 12:06, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
I think it is illegal to transcript irl books. And, I think he may've meant these books? If so, I fully support doing those too, as well with scrolls, etc.
I mean in-game books. I am aware of copyright and piracy laws, and no, I will not steal a car. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 00:35, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
Oh, of course. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 11:47, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

COMMENT Please visit [[RuneScape:WikiGuild/Proposals#Dialogue pages]] is the new proposal same one but in the wiki guild thanks all supporters  Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  14:44, January 13, 2010 (UTC) again thank you so much i couldn't have doen it without you!

Comment - I raised a big harry issue on Forum:Links in Update pages#Copyright Violations and I think it might apply here too. A part of me want to really support these transcripts as it would provide a very useful service to the greater Runescape player community and it is something that seems like a natural fit with the RS Wiki. All this said, I think all of these transcripts would be flagrant copyright violations and therefore would be illegal for us to host on this wiki. Again, I'd like to point out the following little disclaimer at the bottom of the edit window when you put stuff onto this wiki: All contributions to the RuneScape Wiki are considered to be released under the CC-BY-SA (see RuneScape:Copyrights for details). If it can't be added to this wiki under the terms of the CC-by-SA license, we simply can't legally put this sort of stuff on this wiki. Brief quotes such as showing a partial transcript of the dialog that helps to illustrate a walk through or quest article is certainly permissible, but it would have to fit with fair use standards that also apply to textual information along with things like images (where there usually are more problems). To me, this is likely to be a fatal flaw in this proposal. We can't be flagrantly copying content that legally belongs to somebody else without their express permission. Then again, we as a community could simply tell Jagex to take a hike and we don't care about petty little things like, say, the law. I'm talking United States Code Title 17 here if you want to be specific, as it applies to this particular server and similar laws in the United Kingdom and the Berne Copyright Convention that honors international copyright. --Robert Horning 13:47, January 15, 2010 (UTC)



Allright so should we email jagex or something post on the forums (im f2p)



 Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  22:56, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

If you want to take the effort to formally get permission from Jagex on this issue to copy the dialogs, be my guest. Note that you are not really acting on behalf of the wiki necessarily, but that you are a contributor to this project and that you would be interested to know if Jagex might consider granting us permission to use the dialogs of the characters in some fashion on this fan website. It might be interesting to see just what Jagex would say about that, but be prepared for Jagex to simply say "No". Also be prepared to delete any existing dialogs on this wiki that aren't just short quotes if you make this request. Deletion requests can be made through the usual channels. --Robert Horning 00:38, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
They haven't ever complained about how we quote news posts, so why would they dislike this project? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 19:11, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
If you are quite certain we could get permission from Jagex to do this, OK. I'll bite on that. Copying content of this nature with the express permission of the copyright holder is legal.... but where is the permission? This isn't merely an interpretation by some j-mod but actual copyright law I'm talking about here too. If you don't think they'll complain, be my guest. Just be aware of copyright law and read the fine print for the consequences of illegal copyright infringement by reading the FBI warning at the start of a movie that comes from an American film distributors. If you aren't an American, you can look at this screen capture here:

[1]

I'd say that the consequences are a bit more severe than an account ban or forum mute here. As for Jagex caring or not caring, I suppose that matters too. At the moment, I simply don't know. --Robert Horning 00:24, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
Sure, contact Jagex if you want, it's better to be sure about something like this, but really... Do you think they would spend all that money on a bunch of lawyers, just to bust a fansite? Who would they sue anyway? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 18:08, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
They would contact Wikia with a DMCA takedown notice, and depending on how pervasive that these updates are perceived to be, they might just ask for the whole site to be taken down like happened already with the Unrunescape wiki. The fact that they did take the effort to shut down that wiki and demand its contents deleted should be sobering enough to note that Jagex is willing to send lawyers against fan websites if they think their interests are threatened. No, I don't think the dialogs are something Jagex is nearly so paranoid about having deleted, but the copyright issue is still there. My earlier point, that if there was something else Jagex didn't like about this website and wiki, these dialogs could be the tool to cause grief for us regardless of the fact that they may or may not care that they are republished. Jagex has, successfully, taken down other websites through legal action because of copyright violations, and that is past tense and established precedence on the part of Jagex. --Robert Horning 03:19, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
They took down the UnRuneScape wiki?? I don't blame them, the entire wiki was just paedophile jokes and Jagex's expense. Anyway, if they did deem that we were breaking copyright and decided to sue, then they would sue to have the copyrighted material removed, not to have the website shut down like the UnRuneScape wiki.
No, actually, they would have a way to get us taken down: This forum and Robert's post here. We now know that it is illegal, and we have taken no action to remove it or contact Jagex, so basically we are ignoring the law as of Robert's post. I'm not saying he shouldn't have brought it up, as it is still a very important topic. ZERXQBBucket detail.pngrwojy 03:54, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment I have the idea that Jagex knows about this, and doesn't care, per the comment User:Tedjuh10 left on the fake reason post, here. But I still think we should contact Jagex anyway, just to be safe, and I agree that posting it on the forums would be a bad idea. But how do we contact them, and who do should be the one to do it? KEUZUBucket detail.pngrwojy 03:36, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Why is the forums a bad idea?? If we posted it in Jagex Lite, then we would probably have a response within a day. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 03:42, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
First of all, the wiki isn't even official, so we couldn't mention it without the forum being locked quickly. Also, even if they didn't close it quickly, the answer would almost certainly be No, because if they said yes, many people might get the idea that they can do it to. NSZPPRBucket detail.pngrwojy 03:48, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Why do we need to name the wiki specifically?? Copyright laws don't discriminate based on how popular the fansite is. Also, why is it a bad thing that fansites can write down what NPCs say?? Some fansites not approved by Jagex already do it. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 04:10, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
One: we are asking for permission for ourselves, not other fansites. And two: Just because other sites do it doesn't make it any less illegal. JKQNSFBucket detail.pngrwojy 04:26, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
How about I make a thread saying "A RuneScape wiki fansite which I contribute to is currently discussing creating NPC dialogue pages and in-game book transcripts, but the question has been raised about whether it is breaching copyright and if Jagex could/would take action to have it removed. Even though some other fansites have already have transcripts, I think it is better to be safe then sorry. Also, if it is allowed would the pages be required to be locked as to prevent them from being altered, and possibly breaching copyright?? Thanks in advance." I will happily suffer the consequences if they deem it that I did something wrong. I am not making the message this wiki specific, yet I say enough that they can make an educated response. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 04:44, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
That's good and all, but we are not making a 'public' inquiry, this is a private matter between us and Jagex. I just cannot agree with posting on the forums, I truly believe that email would be better. GBGHABucket detail.pngrwojy 04:46, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Why make it private?? Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 04:52, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Because this is an attempt to get Jagex's permission, not something to get more people. Especially if they say no, we don't want people to know that we are knowingly breaking the law, that woud reflect very badly for us. ESLPWIBucket detail.pngrwojy 04:56, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, if someone reads the thread then heads over to the wiki and sees them, that could turn out bad. scoot4.pngscooties 05:00, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
We would only be breaking the law if we started creating dialogue pages and then we asked Jagex. How can it reflect on us badly if we ask if something is breaking the rules before we start do it?? Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 05:04, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

(reset) This question is to determine if we can reproduce any of their content, basically. Also, did you read Forum:Links_in_Update_pages#Copyright_Violations? We are currently breaking the law, and we are aware of it. ZSUBucket detail.pngrwojy 05:09, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

So if we post a thread asking if we will be sued for breaching copyright by writing what NPCs say, people will be able to jump from there to realising that we are not allowed to draw arrows on game guide images?? I can tell that neither of us are willing to budge. I don't actually have anything wrong with contacting them privately, feel free to contact them privately if you want to do so, though I don't think that there are any ways left to do so. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 05:18, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Well, I've asked Robert, as he seems to have contacted them through email. BOMIBucket detail.pngrwojy 05:23, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think most hyperactive 11 year olds sitting at a computer care, nor would many people be looking at the Jagex Lite forums. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 05:29, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Unless there are any more objections, I will send a letter to Jagex, asking about permissions, by tomorrow. It may be some time before a response is given, so we will be 'on hold' until one is received. NBSHEBucket detail.pngrwojy 08:56, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

What will the letter say? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 10:45, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Fair question. It will be a simple letter, as there isn't anything to discuss, it will basically be a plea for permission to use their materials. Only some of course, I will specifically state that we do not intend to copy game guide material, the stuff we have will be mainly for historical purposes. If people wish, I can make a draft in my userspace, and you all can make suggestion to it. NDEDBucket detail.pngrwojy 10:54, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Personally, I'd like that. We are a community-based website after all, so deciding what's in it together would seem appropriate. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 10:56, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I'll put up a draft relatively soon. OCTBMBucket detail.pngrwojy 10:59, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment I have put up a basic draft, for mailing to Jagex, here. Suggestions are welcome. UTFPBucket detail.pngrwojy 17:07, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

I know that it has nothing to do with this discussion, but could our questions about using the RSMV be included as well? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 17:13, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
No, because there is nothing to ask that will not give an instant no. And because of that almost certain no about the rsmv, I don't wish to include it, as it can taint the rest of the letter. Anyway, there isn't anything to ask, as it has already been determined that it is not illegal, and I trust Robert's opinion on that matter. JUZLXNBucket detail.pngrwojy 17:19, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
So wouldn't this be legal as well? If the RSMV is fair use, wouldn't this also be fair use? It's educational, isn't it? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 19:29, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

I have made the letter it's own forum, and I'm going to ask Robert to explain the difference, as I haven't actually been following the rsmv discussion. AROFYHYBucket detail.pngrwojy 21:09, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - There are 2100 NPCs according to what? Youdead00 21:25, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Category:Non-player characters. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 21:36, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment on Educational Fair Use - I have tried to refute the argument about educational fair use. Simply put, it doesn't apply to us at all. Using educational fair use as a rationale for anything done on this wiki is legally incorrect, and is an improper legal argument. What we are doing with images on this website, including images from the regular user client as well as from sources like Twitter, Facebook, the official Jagex websites, the Runescape Model View (yes, the RSMV applies in this case!) and elsewhere that is copyrighted by Jagex, is that we are doing critical commentary and scholarly synthesis of the content from Jagex. This would be identical in nature if we were publishing a commercial newspaper, magazine, or book about Runescape and trying to sell that content for a profit.

Educational fair use applies to somebody who is an actual credentialed instructor teaching at a bona fide educational institution like a High School or University. If you are an instructor, you are permitted to make a few copies that you can bring to your classroom for instructional purposes. By law in the USA, this is at most one per student. It must be illustrative of a particular point of instruction in your curriculum and furthermore such copying can't be controlled in some central manner, such as being requested by the school's principal or administrator (that violates copyright). It must be the decision of the individual professor or teacher involved for their individual students. There are other restrictions, but simply put, it applies only to teachers. While perhaps after a fashion there may be some people using resources from this wiki as an educational resource, we can't be the ones violating copyright here.

Fair use is legal, and I hope that most people here have seen a game strategy guide about a computer game that they have played that is found in a major bookstore. If you open up such a book, they will have illustrations and screenshots of the game that are used to help explain how the game is played. This is the nature of fair use, and how it can be legal.

The model viewer, while Jagex doesn't want players to be using software written by somebody who isn't a Jagex staff member, is perfectly legal to use. Screen shots taken from the model viewer are still copyrighted by Jagex, as it is Jagex content (the internal models for the regular user client) that are being used to generate the views of those models. This is called a derivative work. You can't shamelessly copy such models and post them everywhere or combine them into other images such as fan art. You can, however, apply fair-use principles and take a snapshot of those models and comment on what is seen, just as you can comment about a screen shot from the user client interface. This is consistent, and legal use of copyrighted material.

On the other hand, you won't find major sections of game dialogs in most of these game guide books that you can find in commercial bookstores. There is a reason for this, and that is because it is illegal to do blatant copying of copyrighted content. Short exceprts of something from a copyrighted source are fine, as long as they are properly referenced and sourced (you must identify the author or publisher). You might find a humorous dialog from a game quoted in a book like that, but it wouldn't be the entire dialog, just a portion of it.

As to my opinion on including the RSMV in any letter to Jagex, it would be a mistake unless it is a separate letter hopefully sent by some other person than the one with questions about the dialog. Keep this simple if you want to contact Jagex. Deal with one issue at a time, keep the letters short and simple, and try to make an argument about how this would be beneficial to Jagex in terms of giving us permission. Cite how we are not going to use this to create a new game of our own, nor are we going to encourage any dialogs of this nature to be put onto private servers either.

That, BTW, might be the fatal flaw here. Developing a database of dialog messages might be also used as a source for the private server developers, even if we aren't actively trying to help in that area. One of the advantages of working in a free content environment such as with a GPL'd game or something like that is that you don't have to be so paranoid about sharing pieces of information of this nature, as such sharing of content is note only allowed but even actively encouraged. We are dealing instead here with a company that doesn't support free content very well (free as in speech, not beer). --Robert Horning 21:42, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

That was some response. I fully agree that the RSMV issue should not be named in this letter - it was silly to suggest doing that. I would like to have another letter sent to Jagex about that - but at a later point, when we have made up our own minds about the issue. And of course it should be sent by a different person, to make sure they don't assume that the person sending these letters is our 'leader'.
I understand, and already understood, that 'education' is not what we are doing here - I meant something like 'informational'. However, I think, they would mind RSMV images more than dialogue copies. But that is not a risk we can take - if they would disagree with what we plan on doing and we haven't asked them, we will get in serious trouble.
For the RSMV, that risk is less, because of it being easier to defend to a judge. However, I think that we should contact them properly about it.
I think that it would be best to write them a letter about using these dialogues, and if they seem to disagree with that, we wait for them to cool down before we send the RSMV letter, to get a response that wasn't thought of in a second when they were still 'upset' about the other letter. If they say that we can publish this dialogue (though probably restricted), we should send them the other letter some time after the first (so that they don't think that we want to take advantage of the first letter's result), though of course a bit earlier.
In a nutshell: I agree with sending this letter, I agree with not including the RSMV issue, I think we should write a seperate letter about that and I think that Jagex should have the last word about this. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 17:49, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Who the heck is going to send jagex this email!!!!!  Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  19:19, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Keep calm Concerned Swiz Talk Review Me 19:25, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
See Forum:Letter to Jagex. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 19:26, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

allright thanks. I was not trying to get this heated at all I was just expressing frustration. Not at anyone at all.

Thanks,



 Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  14:23, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Dialogue page format

Well, I've noticed that we seem to be going ahead with making dialogue pages anyway. Could we please come up with a common format for all dialogue pages? I made a little mockup of Hunding the barbarian's dialogue on my userpage. I think it would be very beneficial if we could come up with a format.Cook Me Plox 21:46, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

{{RFC}}

Oppose and thought this was a dead issue - For myself, these kind of dialog boxes can and should be speedily deleted. It is a simple matter of copyright violation, and as such should be removed. There shouldn't be a common format as they shouldn't exist in the first place. If so, mark for deletion or nominate on the VfD page. That should be the format for these pages.... to remove them. --Robert Horning 20:43, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Oppose - Per RS:COPY, we would be violating copyright; it isn't protected by Fair Use because we would be simply copying it with no commentary, criticism, etc. Delete them. Leftiness 03:23, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

With Fair Use, it really depends how far we're going to take it. I for one can't imagine any legal trouble for this. We already have dialogue pages for Summoning familiars and a handful of other NPCs. Also, we have our pages on the updates, which, of course, are taken directly from Jagex. We need to either stick rigorously to one side or the other. If we are not allowed to have dialogue pages for all of the NPCs, for what reason are we allowed to have dialogue pages on Summoning familiars, or even copy Updates?
On a somewhat related note, whatever became of the letter to Jagex? Cook Me Plox Talk 05:29, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, we can get in considerable legal trouble with this, and I would argue that the dialog pages for Summoning familiars also need to go. None of this is legal and it is all blatant copyright violations. It certainly isn't fair use, which generally is a very short excerpt used to illustrate a point in a much larger body of original text. If you want to show what the flavor of a quest or activity is like by showing a brief (one or two line) dialog between a player and an NPC, that is one thing, but wholesale copying is simply illegal. Fair use has very strict limits on how far you can go, and they aren't being dealt with seriously. --Robert Horning 12:54, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Since the letter seems to have come to nothing and Rwojy agrees that it is unlikely that they will reply, with Rwojy's help I created this thread in Jagex lite in an attempt to get a response from Jagex. In the original discussion we decided to go for the letter rather then a J lite thread as the J lite might show the wiki badly or something so I originally tried to get a response without actually mentioning fansites at all. Currently two F mods have said that it is allowed, though while they represent Jagex on the forums they don't speak for Jagex. Simply, I am trying to get a reply from Jagex. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 07:42, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

When looking for something about Jagex's position on Fair Use, I came across their fansite page on customer support here. I'm not very familiar with copyright jargon, so if someone could tell me what this means for us posting updates and dialogue pages. Secondly, you might try contacting Jagex on their corporate site. Cook Me Plox Talk 07:58, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Someone on the thread just mentioned this line from the fansite support thread. It is a requirement to reach one of the teirs: "Jagex are acknowledges[sic] whenever any copyrighted content/images are used". Would text like dialogue and news posts fall under "content" Robert?? Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 09:25, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
The largest problem is the CC-BY-SA license under which all contributions to this wiki must be made here. I know that not everybody who is a participant to this wiki takes that license seriously, but it is one of the preconditions to hosting content with Wikia servers for a number of reasons and is something that has been a part of this wiki since day one. Well, it was the GFDL earlier, but essentially a similar kind of license. The point is that we can't require end-users of text written on this wiki to obtain a revocable license from Jagex separately and independently. As such, anything we do must simply fall within the scope of fair-use, unless it is completely original content generated by the contributors to this wiki. Any such "permission" from Jagex is nice and shows a willingness on the part of Jagex to tread lightly with the fan community on content taken from their game, but that isn't really a license we can use on this wiki. What Jagex is offering is incompatible with the CC-BY-SA license. --Robert Horning 13:01, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Furthermore, even if re-licensing weren't an issue, according to Cook's link: "In all cases we retain copyright ownership and the right of approval in advance of you using any copyright material." They would have to approve, in advance, our use of copyrighted material. Leftiness 17:59, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Well, it would appear that this is, indeed, a dead issue. But what does this mean for our use of Summoning familiars' dialogue pages, and the copying of Updates? Should we delete them? Cook Me Plox Talk 17:47, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Delete them - this isn't something that can just be "a dead issue", since it's a clear and present legal issue we need to work out. Since there has not been evidence otherwise, I think we have to delete all dialogue pages. Update pages I see as different, because I think you could make a case for game update announcements being "press releases" which, while they may not be different under the Wiki's copyright license, are I'm sure different in Jagex's eyes. The disappointing thing to me wouldn't be getting rid of dialogue pages in general, it's those few quests or miniquests where you are in such mortal danger when you do them that you don't listen to a thing NPCs say. In those cases, you're providing the dialogue to people that already paid to see it (at least in members quests). In most other cases an argument could be made that we're causing loss to Jagex by quoting the dialogue, since it may prevent people from paying membership fees to play the quest themselves. I just wish Jagex had a mechanism for us to see the dialogue once we've completed the task or after the first time you unlock the conversation. Endasil (Talk) @  19:14, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I also have problems with the update pages, as they are complete and verbatim duplication of content from the main Runescape website, and the update web pages have almost no other original content in them. The general rule of thumb for textual fair use is 2-3 paragraphs or about 10%-20% of the content.... which ever is less. That isn't put into law, but it has been cited in several legal briefs and judicial opinions that have been rendered regarding fair-use in the USA. What we are doing certainly blows away that sort of guideline completely on content of this nature including the update pages. All this said, I haven't tried to rock the boat too hard except for new projects that come down the pike that seems to be blatant copyright violations.
I agree that press releases tend to be a bit of an exception as the originator generally wants as wide of a dissemination of that content as possible, and typically they are in the public domain... aka completely without a license of any kind. I don't know what Jagex thinks along those lines, but generally they have not had problems with other fan websites duplicating press releases nor do they complain about historical releases that are no longer even found on the Jagex website.
The issue with these dialog pages is significantly more critical, however, as it can be used to make a competing product, can introduce "spoilers", and doesn't show any other creative effort on our part in terms of displaying that content on the wiki. Very few if any of the critical tests for fair-use are met at all in terms of the dialog pages. BTW, I'd agree that it would be nice to have this kind of content... if only we could legally gather this sort of information. --Robert Horning 20:28, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
So should we start marking these for deletion, or have a larger discussion about it? ʞooɔ 00:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Endasil: I think a sort of journal, like in the dungeoneering skill, would accomplish what you're asking for. Does Jagex take suggestions seriously? ... I doubt it would be very difficult to apply the current journal to everything. Leftiness 19:40, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Cook: Per above, I think deletion is the decision. Maybe you should make an RfD, stating that it's for every dialogue page, not just one? That way more people get to discuss it. Leftiness 00:08, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

I feel like we will be starting from scratch if we start an RfD. The YG is where widespread changes like this are often discussed; I don't think there has been an issue of transparency. Maybe what we need to do is change Template:Dialogue with a notice that all dialog pages will be deleted in a few days and cite this discussion. That will gather any last-minute objections. Endasil (Talk) @  01:10, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Agreed. Leftiness 21:02, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - We should remove the dialogues from the Wiki, and keep them somewhere as a backup until Jagex tells us what to do. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 16:47, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

The distribution and duplication of verbatim copies of a copyrighted work without a license is simply illegal, and I find it highly unlikely that Jagex would ever give us a license that is compatible with the CC-by-SA. In other words, even having a "back-up" is illegal, except for personal use. If you want to volunteer to do "backup" on your own computer for now, so be it, but it can't be in a publicly accessible place. Technically copyvios should even be permanently deleted so even admin tools don't have access to them. --Robert Horning 17:40, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
That's kind of what I meant by "backup". Someone (or a few people just in case) copies all the dialogue to their computer and keeps it there until we know what to do. If we are allowed to put the dialogue on here, we will, if we aren't, those people delete the backups or keep them if they really want. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:33, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've made an RfD, located here. Please give your input. ʞooɔ 19:01, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Request Closure - The discussion has died down and no consensus has been reached 222 talk 05:33, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I suggest that anybody opposing deletion re-read the above comments in this thread and the RfD, particularly the comments of Robert Horning and Endasil, as well as the fair use law itself. There is only one action to be taken: deletion.

This isn't an issue of consensus. Jagex has reserved all rights to their content, so the only way we can use their content is under the provisions of fair use. These dialogue pages violate the non-commercial and substantiality sections of fair use; we're currently making money on it, and we've copied the entire thing.

There are two ways to resolve this. We can either change our license to non-commercial and get permission from Jagex to use the entire thing, or we can delete the content. Unfortunately, in order to change the license of the wiki, we would have to get the permission of everybody who has ever contributed to the wiki or else start over from scratch with a new license. Seriously, we can't change the license without the author's consent, and, since we're out of contact with many old contributors, changing the license is impossible.

Since changing the license is impossible and we don't want to start over, it doesn't matter if Jagex would give us permission to use the content non-commercially. Plainly, it's a copyright violation, and the only thing left is to remove the it. Leftiness 15:22, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Pending Closure This will be closed in 7 days, unless serious opposition is brought up, with lines that allow us to continue hosting this material. Otherwise it will be deleted, no exceptions. All pages that solely exist to show the dialogue between npcs and players or npcs and other npcs will be deleted, but subject to a review to make sure they are not being used in a legitimate purpose, like a subpage of possible questions and answers, etc. This has gone on long enough, and my original letter sent months ago never got a response, so it must have been 4-6 months we've been arguing over this issue, and I say enough is enough. If you don't like it, then figure something out. Pointless arguing ends now, any rehash of an idea that has been brought down will be ignored. Pending Closure. XZVXWBucket detail.pngrwojy 13:11, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

RIP - Goodbye dialogue pages, you'll be sorely missed by all members of RuneScape Wiki. Requiescat in pace Kyosinn95 09:06, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Closed As per the rfd, the pages will be removed. JMHUBucket detail.pngrwojy 01:19, July 5, 2010 (UTC)