Forum:De-op Andorin from IRC

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This thread was archived on 13 February 2011 by ZamorakO_o.

Recently, AndorinKato created a forum to ban Megan from IRC. In this thread, it was quite obvious Andorin really doesn't like Megan. Everytime Andorin wants to say something, he grabs his opping(getting an @ before your name shows this), which should not happen. Only if you need to use it, opping should happen, and removing it after the action has been done. He takes every situation to kick Megan from the chat, as seen in the 2nd chat log(here). Also, Andorin clearly assumes Megan is trolling all the time ("I become concerned when I combine her apparent technical knowledge with her attitude", "her attitude" makes it look like Andorin thinks Megan is only in the channel to troll and be annoying).

Also, the fact he grabs the small log(3rd) of her mentioning botting is the first case that shows that he treats megan different than others. If someone else says something about botting, i am sure he wouldn't mind, but even though Megan is just mentioning botting once, he sees it as another rule broken by her, and according to the explaination why he included it, this seems true. He also says "led me to conclude that she was trying to just barely imply that she bots" while that is taking something from really somewhere else into the IRC. If I would scam people, and Andorin would hear of it, would that be more reason to ban me from the IRC?

From that thread, it is clear Andorin does not like Megan, and he also treats Megan different to other people. Reading this chat log, you see Coolnesse changing to a nick that is impersonating AndorinKat-O, and then changing to a nick impersonating Iiii I I I. Megan changes to a nick impersonating Iiii I I I too, 5 text lines later, and she almost immediately gets a comment(and again Andorin opping as mentioned in the first paragraph here) by Andorin. I find it strange that Andorin does comment on Megan doing the exact same as Nesse, while Nesse also impersonates Andorin himself, but only Megan gets a warning for it. I tell Andorin about this a later in the discussion, and Andorin does nothing to fix this(for example "oh I didn't see. Well, you shouldn't do that, it's against the rules") so the argument "I didn't see. I can't see every single line in this chat" is not valid here. And even though we just had a discussion about it, later Coolnesse changes to another impersonating nick(line 111), and even though I ping him directly after the name change, he doesn't say anything about it. Even more, Andorin kicks me because I tell him Smuff impersonates another user of the channel(lines 98/101), Azuris.(the change to the name is just in the gap where Megan got kicked by Andorin for bringing up the discussion again(unjust) but the change back to Smuff is logged there)

In line 164, Andorin says "stop with the harassment" while later in the discussion, Megistos and Swiz are clearly harrassing me. For example lines 244, 255, 360, 437, 466, 491, 572, and quite some other lines. He doesn't warn them, even though I report it to him (almost) every time. This once again shows that Andorin only warns certain people.

And like i said in #344, you are not going to close a YG discussion without reading it. The same applies here. If we are just chatting, making a joke, impersonating other people as a joke, then just changing back, there is nothing bad. Some ops do it too(7i, rwojy...). (If you still doubt this(like you did in line 400), you might wanna ask Cook Me Plox(who keeps logs of all conversations in the IRC for an example) It's okay to have fun in a chat, and the impersonating that happens here is not really impersonating, it's just a joke. Nobody impersonates in a bad way. A bad way would be like changing to someone else's nick, then saying something like you are him, and then changing back to your own nick. There is nothing that could hurt anyone with this impersonation. In line 353, andorin explains that his reasoning of warning Megan when she changed nick to an impersonating nick is "If I see something going on, it's my job to take care of it." but, as there is nothing but a joke going on, there was not actually a reason to take care of it.

In line 370 I say that Evil1888 gets opposes to becoming admin because he didn't seem to see the humour in a joke by andorin of blocking him for editconflicting him, but basically, blocking for no valid reason, as a joke, is much worse than changing nick to someone else's as a joke. The impersonating did nothing bad. The blocking does in fact have a permanent "scar" on the clean record of Evil. The impersonating is just a short joke, and then it's over. I'd like to see the first person to find impersonation(where the other one doesn't mind being impersonated) worse than blocking for fun (where Andorin didn't know if the other one minds the joke). Also, about the opposes Evil gets, this also applies as much to Andorin as to Evil.

Because of everything that happened, I propose we remove Andorin from the list of channel operators, so he can't abuse his powers to kick people, enforce things that are totally unneeded, and in that case not even wanted by anyone, and totally ignore any comments about other people doing the exact same he needlessly warned someone else for just before.

Discussion

Strong support - As proposer JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 17:35, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose - Andorin is a good op who knows the rules. I was present in the channel when this whole drama kicked off and I have a modicum of clarification to add to this discussion. Yes, there was user impersonation, and yes, Andorin took Megan to task for it. Wholly on principle he should also have taken Coolnesse to task too, but he later admitted that he didn't see Coolnesse's impersonation. This fact seems to have become the driving force for the entire episode. If he had seen both and only warned one, that would indeed be rather unfair. If he only warned for user impersonation that he actually saw and noticed, he is doing his job well.

Anyone who uses IRC will recognise that even if you are paying attention to a channel you will often miss bits of the chat. If you are doing other things too, you are pretty certain to miss good chunks of text. The proposal states "so the argument "I didn't see. I can't see every single line in this chat" is not valid here.. I feel I am not exaggerating when I say that this statement is to my mind completely false. If Andorin didn't see Coolnesse's impersonation then of course he would only pick on Megan's. I grant that there is an if in that sentence but ceteribus paribus I trust what a sysop says more than a regular user, or they wouldn't be one.

Regardless of the initial circumstances, Joey's refusal to accept this perfectly valid explanation of the disparity in warnings turned into a wildly ad hom. and not in the least bit productive discussion of why Andorin was a "bad op". I wouldn't stand for that kind of nonsense and neither did Andorin, hence him enforcing +m and giving out a few kicks. Pressing an argument that one has been told to drop leaves no basis for valid complaint when one is punished for it. I hope that I am not alone in my judgement that Joey's and Megan's comments rapidly degenerated into trolling.

In summary Andorin warned for rulebreaking that he saw and didn't warn for rulebreaking that he didn't see. I don't believe this is a bad thing. Ardougne cloak 4.png Raging Bull Talk 19:47, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

He also didn't warn Coolnesse after he saw he actually impersonated. And he didn't warn any of the other people I reported to him either. "Andorin warned for rulebreaking that he saw" so, no. He didn't. He even kicked me for reporting it, as mentioned in the proposal.
And you said "I trust what a sysop says more than a regular user, or they wouldn't be one." but do you really think admins are better than other users? Oh and I follow that, I'd still end up at de-opping Andorin, as you said "or they wouldn't be one" so yes, imo he shouldn't be one. And if you meant "they wouldn't have passed a RfA either", I'd like to show you some cases of RfAs that shouldn't have happened. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 20:06, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
The statement that he warned for rulebreaking that he saw is factually correct since he did. By the point where other people who shall remain nameless were stepping in with apparent rulebreaking I think it was pretty clear to all present that we were having some fun at your expense. Andorin isn't stupid. Also, by the time it was pointed out to him that Coolnesse had done it too, the moment had passed. Once again I hope I am not alone in that judgement. Ardougne cloak 4.png Raging Bull Talk 20:13, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
So you say Andorin isn't stupid and saw you were having fun at my expense? So, it is not okay to impersonate people for fun, but it is okay to impersonate people to have fun at somebody's expense? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 20:20, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose - Per Bull. I do not see anything wrong with what Andorin did. bad_fetustalk 19:54, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose - First, You have to assume he is telling the truth and missed that particular line. Second, you were asked to stop multiple times and yet you didn't end the conversation, and had the cheek to tell me and Bull to stop telling you to shut up. Third, You're the dumbest person I know.   Swizz Talk   Events!   20:00, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

First, I do believe he missed that line. I do think however he should not have ignored all reports of impersonating people, and ban me in the end for reporting another impersonator. Second, I want to have discussions finished, not stopped half way. Third, like i said 9001 times in the IRC too, stop being rude. You really need to stop it. Maybe you should read RS:UTP as that is not how we treat people here.(that also applies in the IRC, as all rsw rules apply there) JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 20:06, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
So you want me and Bull to finish in the middle of a conversation but not yourself? What makes you better than us?   Swizz Talk   Events!   20:10, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
I told you two to stop being offensive. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 20:20, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
I may of been offensive, however Bull was certainly not. Unless you find standing up for Andorin offensive.   Swizz Talk   Events!   20:26, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
Bull was offensive too. Read the references in the 4th paragraph, and you see him call me moron and lacking intelligence. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 20:31, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose - Per everyone else. Joey, I thought you were pretty cool. You seemed nice enough and appear to be a good editor. But... seriously? This Joey & Megan vs The World crap is getting old, and I barely know either of you. All day I watched you both skim on the edges of our irc rules, then I leave for 2 hours and this happens? I hate to break it to you, but your "he doesn't like Megan" argument does not stand. I've never seen Andorin single out a person like that before, especially while in a position of power. Unfortunately, your friend breaks the rules. A lot. I understand you wanting to stand up for her, but this is not justifiable. You're doing this out of anger and hate for the person who was trying to enforce the rules. All you two have done today is troll. Enough. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 20:11, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I do not stand up for her. I stand up for equal treatment. I am not doing this out of anger. I had a whole night of sleep between the discussion and the proposal, and I still think Andorin really should not have done this kind of thing. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 20:20, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your complete lack of maturity in IRC regarding this matter makes me think otherwise. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 20:33, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
Can't see anything that Andorin said wrong there...all that he posted was true, not false. Megan had threatened to DDoS people, especially she ruined Evil's website...And she seriously needs to get banned, this had to be done, this wasn't because he singled her out, or because he hates her. My 1337 b0w1337rng3r|Talk Har har, my wikia bird, T-Hawk! 20:54, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
(editconflict x2) I also made this thread to see if people found it normal if someone only warns a particular person, then doesn't warn the other one after being told there was someone else too, then ignores several reports of impersonation, and then kicks me for reporting another. Apparently, you do, which I'm surprised of. Seriously, I am not angry. I just don't think someone who does this kind of things should be op. (If you look at it the other way, would you support Andorin becoming op if he wasnt already one?) JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 21:11, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - Per all, and, don't take this as an offence, but seriously dude, your Joey and Megan vs. the world is just plain stupid, it's obvious your on her side and your supporting her, so you would be rather angry to do that and request against Andorin for being unjust, and biased, and singling Megan out...Don't think that. My 1337 b0w1337rng3r|Talk Har har, my wikia bird, T-Hawk! 20:54, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

User:Cook Me Plox changed the title to that. I am not "on her side" but i am standing up for equal treatment. And please read my answer to Ferg too. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 21:14, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
Well, equal treatment you say? Equal treatment is basically if dude1 slapped dude2, and dude2 can't slap him back, so you demand equal treatment, therefore making dude2 slap dude1. Now, this isn't what's going on here, Megan is the one that slapped people, and then Andorin didn't even slap her back, but simply block her. So, if you demand equal treatment, it'd be: slap Megan, not slap Andorin. My 1337 b0w1337rng3r|Talk Har har, my wikia bird, T-Hawk! 21:23, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
It's more like Coolnesse slaps Andorin, then slaps Iiiii, then Megan slaps Iiii, then Andorin warns(also "slapping") Megan, but not Coolnesse. For equal treatment, it would be that Coolnesse got atleast as much slap of Andorin as Megan got: both a warning. I was actually not talking about the thread Andorin created. I was talking about the 2 chat logs I linked to. That has nothing to do with Megan "slapping" people, as she did only half of what Coolnesse did, but still got more "slap" back. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 21:43, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, any event mark that really did happen? My 1337 b0w1337rng3r|Talk Har har, my wikia bird, T-Hawk! 13:31, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose - Per all. Andorin is in my opinion one of our most capable administrators, and he shows just as much capability in our IRC channel as he does here. --Aburnett(Talk) 21:02, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Though the kick did represent a conflict of interest, it is most certainly not enough to deop him over. Ajraddatz 21:21, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose - I am in IRC constantly, and Andorin's behaviour has been nothing but excellent, the "evidence" you provided may be some minor trivial points to mull over, but nothing that constitutes a de-opping. 222 talk 22:41, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose - Andorin is one of the most capable moderators we have. --LiquidTalk 23:06, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Nothing here warrants a de-opping. Andrew talk 23:47, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - He is probably the best if not one of the best ops we have and the whole irc would be damaged if he was de'opped. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 01:11, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Really now? Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 09:03, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - (since my opinion won't count) tl;dr version: Joey, what have you been smoking lately? I'm sure it's not April 1st yet. Long version: Equal treatment? I'm sorry, that's absolutely hilarious. If everyone were given equal treatment, Ikin would have got banned a long time ago. The hole just gets deeper and deeper. Whatever you see in her, most don't see it judging by this and other threads. As for mentioning botting, who else mentioned botting? There's a difference between saying "oh I see bots at the ess mines" and "I'm botting str." Megistos and Swiz weren't harassing you, truth hurts eh? Andorin is one of the best IRC channel operators I've seen in #wikia-runescape, his willingness to take a stand for what is right is very admirable. I'm sorry that you failed to see it. Normally I wouldn't have posted on threads like these but this is rather beyond ridiculous if it's not an attempt at trolling. ~Aeri 09:22, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Course your opinion counts. How are we any different from you =D? Real Nub 18:51, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Moar oppose - Andorin has a no-nonsense attitude that a lot of ops don't have. He's a good op, don't stop him doing his job because of a single kick you disagree with. That's like sending someone to prison for bumping into you in the street and making you drop your icecream. Real Nub 18:51, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - withdrawn JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 17:25, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

Closed - Nominator withdrawal. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 18:33, February 13, 2011 (UTC)