Forum:Creating video aids for various wiki pages

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Forums: Yew Grove > Creating video aids for various wiki pages
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This thread was archived on 6 February 2012 by Ryan PM.


As I drive on up to the terrible state of Ohio, an idea that I had been sitting crept back into my mind. I once had a friend who claimed that the wiki guides for quests were too difficult for him to follow. Now, this is obviously a user error (he is a bit slow) but for some quests it can get a bit hectic (Haunted Mine springs to mind). There are some users who have trouble following written guides and static images - this is no fault of their own (sometimes), they just process information in a different way.

The suggestion is to add guides specifically designed for the rswiki to the page in video form. Now, obviously for this to work, a few things need to hold true: can we embed youtube videos into the wiki pages? If so, cool; we'd need someone to do these quests and record/edit them. I'd be more than eager to do this myself, with help if anyone is interested. I would also set up a new youtube account for the videos, and upload them - taking the burden, as it were, of all the work.

Are there any other instances where a video guide would be helpful outside of quests? (How to minigame/boss/etc, introductions to skill training/wilderness/etc)  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dumuzid (talk).

Discussion

Comment - We had a discussion on this at Forum:Video guides. ɳex undique 18:53, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Last year though... Hair 18:56, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
Which is why I didn't close this. New ideas can be brought forward, I'm just linking to a previous discussion. ɳex undique 18:58, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - video guides are a tricky thing, especially if someone decides to report them and get them taken down as copyright infringing material. Plus they would need to be updated every time a quest or area is updated, as Taverley and Burthorpe were recently. It's just not worth it. Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 19:00, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should update them if an area is updated (graphics). Plus, it isn't that often a quest is updated. The users will just have to suffer through and take the video guide. Hair 19:05, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Support - Videos could be a real plus to how we can help users get through a quest. It seems like a good idea! (I was thinking of proposing this myself) Hair 19:05, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - I've had a look through the last proposal, and have seen nothing that has changed. Whilst it may be useful for some quests, such as the EW series, for others it'd be better explained via text, such as Imp Catcher. Also, unlike the images that we have currently, each version of the video would have to be completely redone if somebody else wanted to work on it. Just not worth it What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 19:12, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Not useful? I never use the runescape wiki when it comes quests. Since for one, it is all paragraph style and I'd rather just have a "do this, do that" guide (I use RuneHQ). Plus, I have youtube open on a computer beside this one with the video guide. If the wiki had video guides on the page too, I would love to have it all one on page for the wiki. A big plus in my eyes. Hair 19:33, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
Did you even bother reading my oppose before you commented? I did not say that all quest guides were not useful, I clearly stated that it would be useful for some. I fail to see how having a video guide for the likes of Sheep Shearer, Imp Catcher etc will improve the article, as text and images would be far better What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 19:42, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
Just gonna add this. Any references to a specific person are aimed at Dumuzid. We're a wiki that anybody can edit, with the exception of certain areas, eg events team, that are more in the realm of community than editing. Video guides as you have suggested would not be within those realms, so therefore to limit the number of people who can use that area would to me and I suspect to Fergie too, violate that basic tenant of the wiki. As Fergie also pointed out, this would likely cause conflict between people, and your solution to that seems to me to be pretty much saying "You didn't do what we said, so we're revoking your right to have anything to do with it", which I disagree with What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 23:42, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Support - as idea starter. Also thanks for fixing it, my phone really really sucks. I will answer some questions here since again, bad phone. The burden of editing and keeping up to date would lie with me and anyone willing to help. The youtube channel information, tools, etc will be placed into the hands of whoever is in charge/sysop/admin/beau/etc. Quests are rarely altered in any way except graphical updates, which do not alter how the quests progresses in almost all cases. These videos would only apply to quests or tasks that are difficult to get through via text. Easymode quests like Sheep Shearer need no video aid. Sheep chathead.png DumuzidSheep chathead.png 19:26, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - Copied/pasted from the last thread, my opinion has not changed: "I love making videos and rsmvs, but there's no way to go back and re-do the quests just to add a video, so we'd have to rely on people who hope they know what they're doing. Who knows if they'll upload a good-quality video or not? There's no telling, we'd have such a wide range, and there would be fights over which video is better for new quests, etc etc." sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 19:36, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

I would be the only one working on these -at first-, but that would be why we nominate a director, someone who has the final say in what happens with the video. I would also submit all videos to screen tests by people who are active and ergo, creative choices would be influenced by the community that runs the wiki. This minimizes fights, but should a fight occur, both parties involved are removed from the team/punished and have no future say on videos. Its not that much different then nominating someone to have powers on the wiki. Sheep chathead.png DumuzidSheep chathead.png 19:45, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
Not practical seeing how we are a wiki everyone can edit. And what if you quit/go inactive? Nominating one user to do such a task .. people who want to make videos would rage over it. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 19:47, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
should something befall me, someone else gets elected to said position. I should note that I don't plan on going away anytime soon. And while people may get upset, that's not anyone's fault. Do people get upset when others are elected for various tasks? It may not be fair, but putting one person in charge minimizes chances of volatility. I offer a suggestion: I could do a test run (upload a video) and submit it for peer review, then see what happens. And thanks for the feedback, its always helpful :3 Sheep chathead.png DumuzidSheep chathead.png 20:01, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - I have never liked video guides, and I hate the Video namespace even more than the videos themselves. Same as Urban, as per my previous opinion on this subject: "We don't have the video namespace for a reason. We also don't have videos in articles or guides as it is unattractive. Another issue is that if we allow for this, it invites for more personal items like Charlie. We got rid of the extension and I would see that it also applies here. I am forever against using video as a guide. We are a Wiki, an encyclopedia where words and imagery are prevalent, not movies hosted here or elsewhere. Sorry, but no." No matter what is said here or in the future, I will never support using videos on this wiki (note that we can already utilize OGV files, but this has only been used once or twice for files from Jagex) in any shape or form. Just another administrative nightmare waiting to happen with the Video NS that comes with a proposal such as this. Ryan PM 23:32, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I still have the keys to the YouTube channel, but just don't have the time or skills to develop any videos. If anyone is capable enough to create quality quest guides, I implore you to do so and then we can organise uploading them. I don't see much weight in the opposition arguments. We obviously won't be able to easily video every quest, seeing as the experienced users have finished them, but why must that mean we have no videos whatsoever. And what's the damage in having videos? Viewers don't have to use them. I can give the password to the YT account to someone more active if the community wants. Chicken7 >talk 02:15, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - Our text guides are perfectly fine. Videos would look very messy here. Besides, videos are not perfect and can suffer from ambiguity just like text can... the difference is that text is much, much easier to correct and update. What if you were at a point in the video where you weren't sure why the player performed a certain action? What if the player did something that you didn't catch, resulting in a fatal mistake on your part? Then you'd have to refer back to the text - yes, those words that you can rely on if you're willing to read them. True, the video maker could have foreseen the ambiguity and explained it within the video, but then he'd have to type an explanation (bringing up possible hard-to-edit problems with grammar and stuff) or narrate it with his voice (no, just no).

Our written guides are quickly created and updated after in-game content is released, so you'll pretty much have to rely on text if you want to experience the content early (how about them early bird bonuses). Reliable, up-to-date video guides can only be created for content that has been in-game for some time. You're not going to get a comprehensive video guide of the Fight Kiln immediately after its release. Even if we could get a Fight Kiln video up, only a highly advanced player would be able to do so. But then we'd have no quest videos because that highly advanced player has probably done them all.  Tien  04:37, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Strong oppose - Is text perfect? No, but complimented with suitable maps and images, it's the most effective way to demonstrate quest guides (presumably videos would only be used for quest guides - the day we have videos showing players killing Jad with flowers is the day our wiki dies). From experience, videos tend to be messy, as you can only go through a quest once, meaning to make a video of the quest, you're either going through it the first time or you're doing so on another account. Few editors have the time to repeat a quest purely for making a video, and anything you do wrong will subtract from that video in a very negative way. For example, if you accidentally go the wrong way, you can either noticeably cut the part out or wastefully double-back.

Videos tend to be very opinionated. It's difficult as it is to edit out the various non-neutral viewpoints which editors tend to throw into all our articles as text. A video would be impossible for others to edit, and thus, all those comments which could be made by whomever took the video would be preserved there.

Speaking of editing, even if the editor is a trusted, experienced editor who made a flawless video free of non-neutral viewpoints and without flaws requiring changes, sooner or later, a part of the quest becomes changed, thus making the video outdated. The recent graphical update to the GUI is an example of that: every image involving the GUI now needs to be updated, and though it may take some time, the majority will be updated. Videos are ridiculously difficult to update, requiring a complete remake. And these graphics do make a difference. Take the Burthorpe update. It changed the layout and locations of everything. Thus, any quest in any way involving Burthorpe would need to be modified.

Additionally, there's the accessibility issues. For example, I have a moderate hearing loss. If the video was purely narrated, as is the case with the majority of Youtube videos (on a totally unrelated note, Youtube's autocaptioning sucks), I would end up missing the majority of it, rending whatever is said useless. But displaying text in a video is also impractical, as everyone reads at different speeds. If I were to give you a piece of paper with a paragraph written on it, you could read through it pretty fast, most likely (or very slowly, depending on how fast you read). But a video would have to show line by line, without going too fast to prevent slower readers from falling behind, penalizing faster readers. You could always read a transcript of something faster than someone could speak it.

And of course, on that same note, downloading the text and images in a quest guide is extremely fast and efficient compared to a massive video. It's no secret that videos are heavy on filesize and bandwidth. And the better the video quality, the higher that filesize becomes. Frankly, my internet leaves a lot to be desired. Loading a video takes a lot of time, and never mind the fact that I want to skip to the part where I kick down Prifddinas's gate, videos don't have tables of contents.

And of course, as I've mentioned, you can only do a quest once per account. The majority of edits to the wiki come from a core group of editors. I'm sure many of them have multiple accounts, but going through quests more than once is largely impractical. Most people who have multiple accounts usually only have a single "main" account, which tries to do everything, such as quests, with the rest being specific to a cause, such as a "skiller" or "player-killer". This narrows down the number of people who are able to make a video guide drastically. Plus, I've never seen a single editor create a large page (around the scale of a modern quest guide) entirely by themselves that was flawless in every way. Everything has to be expanded, changed, reworded, etc. Our quest guides are the work of dozens, if not hundreds, of editors, some who wrote the initial walkthrough, others who just fixed spelling mistakes or added a simple map. Videos are a solo act. This is a wiki, we are a contributory effort, and one that would certainly not benefit from videos. PS: I apologise for the text wall. Hofmic Talk 06:59, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - Per opposers. Matt (t) 09:50, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - We're not a theatre, we're an encyclopaedia. If people have trouble following our mostly reasonable to brilliant guides, and cannot even comprehend the (IMO useless) quick guides, then it's really not our fault. If they prefer videos, fine, #REDIRECT[[http://youtube.com]]. Videos simply do not belong in information sources such as this one. Then there is the matter of quality, location, loading time, audio, text, uploading, formatting......... A good combination of descriptive text and images (and literal text and even more images on dialogue pages) should suffice. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 14:11, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Very well, close topic. I'll get around to making my own videos should someone need them as a supplementary aid to the quest guides available here, they just won't be wiki-approved or placed here. Sheep chathead.png DumuzidSheep chathead.png 18:02, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Closed - Author request. Ryan PM 18:06, February 6, 2012 (UTC)