Forum:Counter Vandalism Unit

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Forums: Yew Grove > Counter Vandalism Unit
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This thread was archived on 31 August 2010 by Ajraddatz.

The CVU was first created on July 25, 2006 by User:Shadowdancer as RuneScape:Counter Vandalism Unit. Then, on May 23, 2010, 3i+1 moved the page to RuneScape:Counter-Vandalism Unit, with a hyphen between the words Counter and Vandalism. The reason given was "fail", which I found woefully inadequate to describe such a move. So, since I only noticed the change today, I moved it back to its original title.

I got some complaints on my talk, generally citing Wikipedia's CVU page as wikipedia:Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit. However, let me mention that we are not Wikipedia and that Wikipedia is not always right.

So, I am proposing that we finalize the name of the page as RuneScape:Counter Vandalism Unit, without the hyphen. My logic for this is rooted in grammar. Counter-Vandalism Unit uses the hyphen to define "Counter-Vandalism" as a compound modifier, or a collective adjective that is used to modify Unit. However, the use of a hyphen in compound modifiers should be limited to when the middle of the three words, in this case Vandalism, is used as a noun or a pronoun. Although Vandalism is a noun, in this case it is being used as an adjective to modify Unit. Therefore, Counter is the adverb modifying Vandalism. Since adverb adjective conjunctions should not use hyphens, the name of the CVU should remain RuneScape:Counter Vandalism Unit. (The source of the preceding paragraph is wikipedia:Hyphen#Compound modifiers.


Strong support - As nominator. --LiquidTalk 00:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - Personally it's fine either way. Coelacanth0794 00:52, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

No, we must be grammatically correct. --LiquidTalk 00:54, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I know we're not wikipedia and this ain't about them, but I am throwing this in. Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit was Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit, and this was the one thing that made that happen: (fixed links)

== grammar ==

sorry to seem like a grammar stickler, but

it should be Counter-Vandalism Unit, with a hyphen

Counter-Vandalism is a compound adjective describing unit.

just a suggestion. —This unsigned comment was added by FTIII (talkcontribs) .

Thank you for pointing that out. I will correct this. - Conrad Devonshire 03:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, wikipedia isn't always right but are right most of the time. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 01:38, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and this move broke the Auto CVU. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 01:40, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
I suppose that depends on how you look at it. I see counter vandalism not as a compound adjective, but as an adverb modifying an adjective. Counter modifies vandalism to show that it is for something against vandalism. As for the Auto CVU, I'm sure 3i+1's initial move broke it also, so the big Q certainly knows how to fix it. --LiquidTalk 01:42, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
And every "If you are immediately reporting vandalism in progress, click this link." Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 01:50, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
It's been a while since I've studied grammar, but I think the correct usage is with a hyphen. As per what Evil quoted above, I think it would be okay if it were simply "Counter Vandalism." However, since Unit is being modified by "Counter-Vandalism," the hyphen should remain. Suppa chuppa Talk 03:33, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Frankly, no one is gonna beat us up about whether it's hyphenated or long as auto CVU+upgraded auto CVU work, that's all that matters. HaloTalk 03:24, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Evil and my comment above. Suppa chuppa Talk

Comment - Oh, and per that Wikipedia article that Liquidhelium cited, Counter Vandalsim Unit could be mistaken as something opposing a "vandalism unit" instead of a unit countering vandalism. The hyphen makes that distinction. Suppa chuppa Talk 03:37, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Who cares... -.- --Aburnett(Talk) 03:42, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Grammar peeps care. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 03:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't you be neutral if you don't care? Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 03:45, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Were going back to what it was, I support that. --Aburnett(Talk) 03:48, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
OMG! Who doesn't care? Suppa chuppa Talk 03:58, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - It doesn't really matter, but if it ain't broken, why try to fix it? svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png

Comment - If we're going to go through an entire thread about a bloody hyphen, why not just rename it to something that isn't one of the rip-offs of Wikipedia here that cause the "RSWiki lacks originality" complaints I've seen so many times over the years. I haven't any suggestions, but even something such as RS:Report Vandalism or RS:Report Vandalism Here would be more appropriate...(Though I wonder if someone has an idea as snazzy and simple as the Yew Grove.)--

Helm of neitiznot (charged).png Azaz129 Crystal shield.png Talk Edits Contribs

04:05, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

The Vandalism Watchtower? Lol --Aburnett(Talk) 04:09, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Hmm, how about..The Adamant Pillory? Fits with RuneScape, and the two words are also well suited. Adamant - 1.too hard to cut, break, or pierce/2.unyielding. (Symbolizing the strength of our wiki against vandalism) & Pillory - a means for exposing one to public punishment; exposiing one's offenses. Not the greatest candidate I'm sure, though good for stoking a bit of brainstorming.-- 05:07, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
I like that...and I'm not kidding, that seriously sounds good. HaloTalk 05:10, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Wow, that's really good. Suppa chuppa Talk 05:12, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
If we call it "Pillory" it will seem like that's the place where we laugh at vandals because of their offenses. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 16:52, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure people like the robot and 3i+1 do that already at the CVU. --LiquidTalk 17:01, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - "Counter-vandalism" is an adjective, so the hyphen would be correct as far as I'm aware, otherwise you just have 3 words jumbled together. (An example could be "counter-terrorism". If a hyphen is not used, it becomes "counterterrorism", not "counter terrorism"). sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 04:07, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - So...We are arguing over a hyphen? Might as well do what Azaz said and rename it to something instead. Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 04:30, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

._. - Seriously? ajr 05:23, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Srsly but really Do i care? No Leave it then Twig Talk 772kZGs.png 05:31, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Why the hell are we having a Yew Grove discussion over something so trivial...? - ^^ Andrew talk 06:08, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Support - To be honest, I don't really care. But I'd prefer it without a hyphen. Also, what Andrew said. Die grammar nazis!!! 222 talk 06:19, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I thought countervandalism was one word Lol This is something extremely trivial, and idgaf really. Maybe something that should've been brought up on the talk page. Chicken7 >talk 07:52, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

  • If you don't care, don't post here. You cannot say "I don't care, but leave it". That means you do care. So pick one or kindly gtfo. To the point, a hyphen is correct. In the grand scheme of things, it's truly not a big deal. But there's no need to be obstinately incorrect. A better solution is to give it a new name entirely instead. But if we're keeping Counter and Vandalism and Unit, hyphenate it. (wszx) 21:29, 8 August 2010 (UTC) 08:06, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per above. But I do agree with the others: why is this on the YG? OMG! Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 08:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - What Andrew said, we don't need a thread for a hyphen. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 08:48, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - This will go down well in our archives... *Hey, look a discussion about a hyphen!* Is this even worth discussing? 222 talk 08:56, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - If it ain't broke, don't fix it. As stated above, creating a forum for the discussion of a single hyphen was probably unneeded. However, I would rather go with something different than what Wikipedia is using such as the Adamant Pillory mentioned by Azaz if we are not Wikipedia (even though there is nothing wrong with using same names). I agree that having the hyphen made it sound more like it is meant (to fight vandalism), that it is more forceful than none at all. Either way, isn't this a bit much to take it to the Yew Grove? Ryan PM 09:45, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, if Liquidhelium said he was gonna move it on the talk, we wouldn't be here... we'd be there... saying the same thing... different page, same huge discussion. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 09:51, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Since when do we have Yew Grove discussions on hyphens? This thread is a waste of time. Anyways, as far as I know, grammatically, it should have a hyphen. bad_fetustalk 09:49, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - It is certainly a good use of our time to discuss a hyphen, especially when it is about grammatical correctness on one of our more frequented pages. How can we stick up and say to people that we treasure grammar when something like the CVU is incorrect? This is an argument about grammar, not wiki policy, but since there are implications for the larger wiki as a whole, I took it to the YG. --LiquidTalk 11:58, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Notice that Wikipedia's examples of adverb-adjective conjunctions ("wholly owned subsidary" and "quickly moving vehicle") both end in -ly. One of the first rules about hyphens that I learned was: Do not use a hyphen if the first word of the compound modifier is an adverb ending in –ly. Also, Suppa Chuppa mentioned above that the hyphen makes the distinction between two possible meanings of the modifier (Ex: "A man-eating shark" vs "A man eating shark"), which can be applied here as well.

I guess you are right about it depending on how you look at it. Personally, I see "Counter Vandalism" as an adjective modifying "Unit," but I can also see it in your perspective.  Tien  14:34, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

The adverb does not have to end in -ly. Counter is an adverb in this sense, and I don't think "counterly" is a word. --LiquidTalk 14:35, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
I know. I was just saying that Wikipedia's examples happen to follow that rule, so they are not the best examples.  Tien  15:26, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Support new name that is significantly different to Counter(-| )Vandalism Unit - Per Azaz. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 15:12, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Didn't understand your last paragraph, so I support a new name. --Iiii I I I 15:35, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - Seriously, a hyphen...? Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 15:38, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - This is as bad as the bullet points argument... Support Azaz' idea, because it'll stop this pointless discussion. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 15:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC) 

Support New Name - Per Azaz. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 16:16, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Can "Rename the CVU" be taken to a new thread, this one is more about grammar than changing the name completely. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 22:42, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Why? This thread was started about changing (or not changing) the name, albeit on a trivially minor scale. It being a hyphen or a space is affected on if we decide to change the name to something different - if we do then the entire thing about the hyphen goes out the window. Saves a few extra page moves and redirect/link changes anyway. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 23:47, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Well, with we are going to change the name, I say Dragon Pillory. I don't like 3 things about the Adamant Pillory. 1. Adamant b 4 da nubz (no offence to anyone) and 2. "AP" (like "Auto AP", "RS:AP", etc.) sounds too much like ability points from Final Fantasy games (but that may just be me) and DP afaik is not used that much and it rolls right off the tongue. And 3. Double meanings are annoying (annoying like White Knight names -.-). Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 05:02, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Outside the context of the game, Adamant has a different meaning. While one might say it is appropriate to have the name work in the context of the game, I would say it's better to have it work in both. Also see Azaz's original comment on the topic. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 02:37, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - Discussion has died down, and I see no consensus for anything. If someone wants to propose a new name for the CVU, then that can , and should be done on another forum. ajr 20:31, August 31, 2010 (UTC)