Forum:Citing from Discord 2 - Electric Boogaloo
- Previous discussion: Forum:Citing from Discord
Hi everyone. Since our last discussion about citing from Discord, it has become clear that many comments from Jagex staff members that could be useful to the wiki are made on Discord. While I'm not saying that we should take everything that is said by a Jmod on Discord as "canon" or the official stance from Jagex, it seems that there is a case for citing specific statements that will provide clarity to information written on the wiki, when said statements aren't available elsewhere (Twitter, etc).
As you may recall, I originally argued against citing from Discord, because it's not particularly a "public source" (you need an account to even see the messages in order to verify the citation), and there was no easy way of linking and/or archiving a message from Discord. I still feel strongly about these points, but Discord does now allow you to link to a specific message (you still need an account to actually see it), which makes it a bit easier for us to include a source when referencing. However, messages can obviously still be edited or deleted after being linked, and the entire Discord server (in this case, presumably the official RS server) could be deleted in the future and we'd lose access to the source of the comment.
Until we have a dedicated approach for archiving (I might look into setting up a tool for this, not sure yet), I'd rather that we didn't cite from Discord often, but I am open to citing from Discord when there is no other source available, and linking to the message (turn on "Developer Mode" in Discord's appearance settings, right-click a message in Discord, click "Copy Message Link"). This is especially useful during betas (Mining and Smithing beta, Weapon diversity beta) when things can change quickly and thus information on the page may need to be updated with facts that may be disputed by other editors.
Support - yes14:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment/additional proposal - As an addition to the proposal, can we also make it so that we can only cite from the official RS and OSRS servers? This is because they have a public invite link (discord.gg/rs and discord.gg/osrs) and we can verify that a person in the chat is actually a Jmod because they would have a role. jayden 14:59, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose additional proposal - Eh, other big servers (such as us, the reddit server, and deep sea fishing) have J-mod roles too - if we're going to go through with citing from Discord I fail to see why they also can't be included.
15:02, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- It’s more difficult to verify them on other servers as they are not official servers for the games. Any RuneScape related server could give a fake Mod Shauny a JMod role and nobody would be any wiser. It is incredibly unlikely that any JMod would post something on a server outside of the official ones that would be worth referencing anyway jayden 15:04, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Conditional support - If we can archive the references somehow then I'll support with amendment of having it just be the official RS and OSRS discord servers, but I want to explicitly note that allowing citations from Discord will require anyone wanting to check those citations to have a Discord account which means those citations wouldn't be public like all existing kinds of citations.18:45, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Support official servers - Let's face it, creating a Discord account is less of a hassle than buying or borrowing a book, doesn't mean we don't cite those. I am a bit worried about the deletion/editing issue since there's no great way to archive Discord messages (and since beta channels, the ones we'll probably cite the most often, tend to get deleted over time) - we definitely need to look for solutions for that. But an impermanent source is still better than no source at all.19:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Big support - People need to realise the absolute ABUNDANCE of information that Jmods give out on Discord. It is a huge shame that we can't use it.19:39, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment - How do we solve the issue of "archiving" channels? This is something that is done on many servers, the Official RS Discord in particular (lots of Mining and Smithing channels btw), once discussion is "done". There is no log for this nor any way for people even with a Discord account to see messages/discussion in removed channels. This then means that whenever the update/discussion is complete there is a countdown on how long any Discord references last before the link to them becomes useless and link to nothing. Whether this means that there needs to be a change in how the Official Runescape Discord archives channels or a way to archive the message itself via something like Way-Back-Machine, archive.fo, etc. I don't know, but this seems like a critical problem of Discord-citing to me.19:45, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sub-Comment - I was thinking about it, could we talk to whomever is in charge of the Official RS Discord (Jagex I'd assume but unsure) and see if they'd be willing to (or allow us to) add functionality to the JMod Responses bot in Discord itself to auto-post to Twitter as well. This then becomes a relatively disorganised but still public, archive-able and undeleteable (outside of Jagex themselves) source for us to cite without many/any of the issues that citing Discord directly brings up. 22:23, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Conditional support - Mostly as per Salix. I Am Me makes a good point for the access not being a significant barrier. Though, I think Salix is right that the difference between this and existing types of citation should be acknowledged. My main concern is the potential for channels to be removed, as per Mitchell. If we can get some sort of (auto-)archiver going to preserve the citations (and if we limit the citations to the official servers) then I support. Possibly a bit off-topic, but if we did come up with some sort of auto-archiver, could we adapt it for other citations too (e.g. cite a forum post and have the back-end tool archive.fo it and return a link etc.)? - Rawny (talk) 22:16, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment - From something I wrote on Discord, this is how I intend some kind of future archiving tool to work if I have time to get around to developing one:
|“||web-based tool where you’d enter which message you’d like to archive from specific servers like the RS one (ie message ID, message link, or something, not sure yet) and then the backend (logged into discord as a normal user account who is inside the servers containing said messages) will find the message and essentially host an archived version of it on the web, perhaps including the previous few messages too||”|
Conditional support - I'll only support citing from Discord, if we can find a way to archive it outside of Discord. MitcheII has a good suggestion about a Twitter Bot tweeting replies from JMods to Twitter and then citing from Twitter. Jayden also has a good suggestion about the web-based tool archiving from discord links. This github project sort of does that locally, so it may be of use for Jayden: https://github.com/Tyrrrz/DiscordChatExporter. Right now I think MitcheII's would work better, but I'm open for both. -- Tzar ❯ Talk 22:10, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - We will find a way.22:27, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Conditional support - what about: citation from discord is ok if it is in the runescape or rs wiki discords only, in a public channel, with screenshot uploaded and linked to citation? idk just my two cents, seems as legit as a tweet, and i like tzar's idea 05:42, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Screenshots can be faked. We don’t allow them to be used for citations. jayden 10:39, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - the lack of ability to source was always the sticking point for me, the ability to cite a specific message overcomes that. Jagex are embracing having discussions with players directly in discord and we need to move with the times as well.
Having something to back up these citations would be great, but we have issues with our other sources being inaccessible as well so I feel that we should proceed with allowing the citations even if this doesn't work out.
I'm not particularly bothered about people having to have an account to access the sources. Anyone is able to create an account to check a citation if they wish, if they don't want to create an account that's a personal choice. As per Jayden, I would be happier keeping to perhaps our own server, the official RuneScape one, and Reddit for now as the places where jmods are accurately identified with a role. If there's other servers where we're missing out on good information from jmod discussions then we can consider using more, but I'm doubtful that that will be the case.17:30, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Closed - Citations from discord are allowed if 1) they are from the official RuneScape channel and 2) if there is no other source available. They should be cited via the direct link method described in the proposal until a permanent archiving tool is created. --LiquidTalk 21:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)