Forum:Chatbox images policy

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Forums: Yew Grove > Chatbox images policy
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This thread was archived on 11 February 2012 by Urbancowgurl777.

Chatboxes are one of the most commonly deleted images, besides minor glitch images, on the wiki. We have quite a few. According to Category:Chatbox images, there's 265 (at the time of writing). Exibit A, :File:Cyrisus combat.png. Oh, look, he's afraid of combat. A 519 × 142 image for one line: "I'm afraid of combat." Good for you Cyrisus, but bad for wiki articles. When placed on the pages, the image will generally be too small to read the text if it's a thumbnail, and if placed full size, it's horrid for formatting, especially with the very limited Wikia skin, which the majority of readers would be using (300 million page views since last January).

That image in particular is also 36 KB, compared to the 21 bytes of data the actual line is. We already have chathead images for the majority of NPCs, and every NPC that has a chatbox image floating around somewhere definitely has a standalone chathead.

Of course, there's also the entire question of there usefulness to the article. If it's a really important quote, we can quote it verbatim, in beautiful text, which is thankfully readable and formatting friendly. But if it's like the majority of our chatbox images, random useless text that just happens to be said in the quest or by the NPC in question, no need to even bother. If the text has trivial value, a mention of what's said can be added to the trivia section of the article. In quest guides, we should be focusing more on summarizing what is being said than quoting it directly ("King Hofmic tells you that the undead Lucien's army is advancing on Lumbridge." rather than "King Hofmic says, 'Hark foolish nave, I bring urgent news, the army of the undead demonic Lucien is marching towards the nearby city of Lumbridge!").

Personally, besides an article explaining what chatboxes are, I don't really see the need for any of them. This brings me to the proposal: firstly, I propose we remove the majority of images in Category:Chatbox images. That would have to be done case by case, as the articles may need to be changed to reflect the removal (eg, quote the text). That alone, though, would not be reasoning to post in the Yew Grove rather than make an RfD. The second change I propose is to tighten the image and media policy on chatbox images.

Granted, the policies rarely stop new users from uploading images, but they do serve to give a policy for deletion as well as for experienced editors to follow (though we've already been deleting chatbox images simply for being chatbox images). As is stands, the only mention of chatboxes in our image policy is to prune them from other images when they are unnecessary. We should add a clause that unless it contains value which cannot be replicated with text in the article, chatbox images should not be used.

Discussion

Support - As nominator. Hofmic Talk 05:59, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and I totally failed to mention the side bonus of far less outdated images to update. Lol Hofmic Talk 06:00, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Support - [[:File:A player being hurt by the hay bale.png|Ow! There's something sharp in there!]] Really? >_> Matt (t) 06:04, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I think most should be removed, but if they actually add to the article, they can stay. The problem is that most of them don't. So I guess I'm neutral? Matt (t) 09:34, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Neutral - Some of them are worth keeping. Yes, images are only meant to enhance the text, but some like [[:File:Veteran cape time left.png|the time left]] until purchasing a veteran cape can't be seen by all or how some images provide just a little more that that. Remember, all anonymous users can see the images at their full view via the Lightbox extension. I do think that we shouldn't have more than one or two of these kind of imagery on an article, but they do enhance it slightly. It's not like we need quest reward scrolls either, we have those in plain text too while you're at it. I oppose the removal of all chat box images, but not most of them. Ryan PM 06:08, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Neutral - Ryan pretty much summed it up for me... I think they should be looked at on a case-to-case basis. some are [[:File:Beacon tender options after macaw.png| completely useless, and should be deleted]], others :File:Melzar-notes.PNG| are too big and clog up the articles and would be better if it was typed out as a transcript and finally [[:File:Bow_sword_exclaiming.png|some are actually useful]], and in my opinion contribute to the article in a positive way.to my talk page! King TALKWer den König nicht ehrt, ist nicht Lebenswert. 08:58, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by [[:File:Bow_sword_exclaiming.png|the last example]] being useful. It is worth noting, though, that the proposal is not to delete everything, but simply a stricter orientation towards chatbox images to cut down on the number in the "totally useless" category. Glitch images, naturally, would be kept, as would anything that could be found to be an improvement to the article. Hofmic Talk 12:12, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - Some are worth keeping, such as [[:File:Tail_of_two_cats_glitch.png]] and [[:File:IcyeneBlood.png]], while others such as :File:Nomads_message.png are not. So it should really be done on a case by case basis. Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 09:31, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Support - Unless they add something that a transcript cannot is there really a need to keep them? I seem to recall Juna/dialogue had both transcripts and chatboxes and there's hardly a need for both. I will admit, there are instances where chatboxes illustrate the point in a far simpler way such as [[:File:Within the light Conclusion.png|this one from Within the Light]], although it does fall to the size issue pointed out above. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of them were quest dialogue which is quite hard to come by even when you know where to find them. cqm talk 09:38, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Neutral - Whilst there are some that are clearly useless and can and should be replaced by text (File:Bonebroochmessage.png), there are some that are actually quite useful, and show what happens when you reach a certain stage ([[:File:Maxslaypoints.png]]). Like others above have said, it should be a case by case basis. And as for chatbox images that duplicate text on a transcript, until the transcript is created the chatbox will suffice What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 10:02, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Again, the original proposal called for case-by-case work, only deleting the images which do not add to the article (probably at least half) and creating a policy to help cut down on numbers of these less useful chatboxes. Hofmic Talk 12:12, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Recommend clarification - A number of examples have been brought up where the chatbox image is beneficial. I think that a clear set of "exceptions" should be made to the proposed rule. Then there will be no real debate over what suffices and what doesn't. Chicken7 >talk 12:20, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I don't know if I should support, neutral or oppose here... I do agree images like cyrisus saying he's afraid of combat are useless and should be deleted, but I think that falls under just removing it yourself and tagging it for deletion. For some other images chatboxes can actually be useful. I don't think a lot of chatbox images are really that useless, but I do agree the category could use a nice clean up of useless images. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:20, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Clarification -

Delete Keep
  • Images consisting only of trivial information which doesn't in any way aid the character (Examples: [[:File:A player being hurt by the hay bale.png|1]], [[:File:Asgoldianaledialog.png|2]], [[:File:Computer Game.png|3]], :File:Runescape_mistake_(not_irl).png|4)
  • Images of use that could be described or transcribed in the article without any loss of information (Examples: [[:File:Information_for_ham_court_case.png|1]], :File:Sani mentions Calsidiu.png|2,:File:Thalzar-plea.png|3)
  • Single line messages that appear inside the regular chatbox but don't contain any special formatting (color, emphasis, etc) that would allow them to benefit over plain text (Examples: [[:File:Chestdialogue.png|1]], [[:File:Bonebroochmessage.png|2]], [[:File:Bandos_pool_message.png|3]])
  • Images with historical purposes when used historically (Examples: [[:File:Chatbox_old.png|1]], 2)
  • Images of rewards of milestones, when used appropriately (Examples: [[:File:Chompy3.png|1]], :File:40slayerequired.png|2)
  • Single line messages that appear inside the regular chatbox containing special emphasis (Examples: :File:Title in chat.png|1, [[:File:20080206 NewMusicSystemV2.png|2]], :File:Winterstorm.png|3)
  • Images which may enhance the article with their dialogue and cannot be quoted in the same way, such as if they use images inside the chatbox (Examples: :File:Melzar-notes.PNG|1, File:But_at_what_cost.png|2)

I have no idea about images that are supposed to be quoting J-mods in game, such as [[:File:ModMarkClimbingBoots.png|this one]], though I personally think they should go, as they're incredibly easy to fake. Hofmic Talk 13:03, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

And of course, use common sense for the images that slip through the cracks. Hofmic Talk 13:05, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
I agree with most of that, 'cept for the second point in the deletion column. Unless someone wants to directly write that in an article, we should keep it. Moreover, an image (when at full size, of course) looks more aesthetically pleasing and is even more proof of that and how it's actually said in-game. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 15:03, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
Can you give me an example, in an article, where it's more aesthetically pleasing (in the Wikia skin, not your monobook)? All images must exist in articles, and with rare exceptions, are generally not full sized. "is even more proof of that"? What's that mean? How it's actually said in game? You can do that with a verbatim quote too, but there's often no reason too. Generally it's better to summarize what's being said in third person rather than just quote it (which would end up being first person). Look at Wikipedia (yes, I know we aren't Wikipedia), for the most part, everything is summarized from their sources and dozens of authors, with occasional quotes. For example, a page on a movie includes a synopsis which generally does not contain quotes, yet still sufficiently summarizes what happened (actually, our quest guides are very lacking in describing what's happening, most just say do this, do that, without the why). So, please, an example of when point 2 would not work? Hofmic Talk 18:24, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Case by case - Most chatboxes are there for a reason, but I wouldn't mind pruning the category a bit. We can do some RFD's otherwise. Also, per Ben and Chicken. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 15:03, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - Oh, what about chatbox (compilations) purely for humorous purposes? (ex. [[:File:Miazrqa Conversation.png|1]] - [[:File:Citizen dialogue.png|2]] - [[:File:Hydro-endo-cardio-spatula-itis syndrome.PNG|3]]) User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 15:11, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest? Some of Jagex's jokes are very funny (I particularly enjoyed Garden of Tranquility for its dialogue), but they don't need a chatbox image. If you really like the dialogue, make a dialogue page. Those images are likely useless, judging from all the red in your links. Hofmic Talk 18:24, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I support trimming down the number of chatboxes to save space (and time updating), but those guidelines don't make any sense. What makes Thalzar's plea any different from Melzar's ramblings? Why does the emphasis in the chat matter at all when we're deciding what to delete? Delete point 2 is also problematic because we don't have a good way to transcribe dialogue for mainspace pages, and because there are cases when having a picture provides a point of reference (such as Calsidiu.) I also don't see what makes milestones any different than something that could be transcribed to text, or why a chatbox having an image should make so much of a difference. ʞooɔ 21:47, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I don't have a good reply to that. I'd personally rather nuke most of the chatbox images in general. With the exception of a few (maybe a quarter), I feel most of them are grossly unnecessary. However, some of us have sentimental attachment to some types of chatbox images (I suppose it's like how I don't want the quest reward scroll images removed, even though we have text stating the reward below them - I don't have a particular reason why). Thus, it's mostly there to please those who like some of these particular images. Hofmic Talk 01:34, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - Don't forget these. Matt (t) 06:21, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, forgot to mention that. Those are worse. Hofmic Talk 06:47, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - I like seeing chatbox images in articles. They give it a certain atmosphere. Yes, some chatbox images are just plain bad and should be deleted, but you should just be bold and add a {{d}} tag, like we've been doing. I don't see the need for a new policy on chatbox images. ɳex undique 17:02, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - With the newish updates, don't a lot of them need updated anyways? Smuff [kthnxbai] 19:57, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Closed - There is really no consensus to create a set of guidelines, but rather, to UCS and tag chatbox images for deletion as the user sees fit. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 16:13, February 11, 2012 (UTC)