Forum:Bird's nest Loot Log

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Forums: Yew Grove > Bird's nest Loot Log
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This thread was archived on 26 May 2013 by Spineweilder.

I purpose adding a drop/loot log to the Bird's nest page, very similar to the existing Charm and Jadinko logs. I have read a few previous topics on general monster drop logs, and understand the concerns with drop logs in general; however I believe that the Bird's nests are specific enough (like charms and the hunter Jadinkos' seeds) to maintain accurately. Unlike general monster drops, it is also very easy to keep track of the loot of Bird's nests.

I have folded (some know to what), and created a first suggestion towards a Birds nest data template, similar to the existing Charm data and Jadinko data templates. To make the start-off easier, I have also made a page using the template already, which includes all the data I gathered myself from my Kingdom, since mid-2012. (I also still have older data, from back in 2007-2008, but since Raven eggs didn't exist back then (or at least weren't included in the Kingdom spoils, in 2008), I doubt it would still be accurate and should be included).

I'm hoping to get a consensus to add a loot log to the Bird's nest page (at this time, purely for the normal nests, however; not the special ones from Wyson). My template is simply a suggestion; I'm perfectly fine with other suggestions // change requests for the template. I'm not good at coding these yet, but I'll learn ^^ . (The template only has the basic table view currently, I have not yet defined other views. Those could be added as required.) IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 11:29, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

EDIT: Per suggestion, I have gathered additional data on the Bird's nests (as well as some data on herb seeds from the Kingdom). The data can be found here, and at this time contains 7046 Bird's nests looted, and 795 herb seeds received. I'll gladly collect more data at a later date, but it would really have helped had I not collected my Kingdom only a week ago.
EDIT2: To clarify, I didn't use the suggestion to the letter; rather I collected from the kingdom every time after reimporting my save. This also gave me a new random distribution of the type of nests I was getting every time.

Discussion[edit source]

Support - As the topic-creator, in the assumptions self-support is allowed. IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 11:30, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Yes you're allowed to self-support your own thread (: HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 12:08, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Support - I don't see why not. There is most likely a fixed loot rate, as you have said, and thus we should have started this ages ago. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 12:08, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Support - Aye, this be useful. Would it be on a subpage, or can we stuff it on the actual article? User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 13:11, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

I imagine the same way the jadinko seeds work (and to an extent, how the charm logs used to work before we got the new namespace): data on a subpage, results in a section on the article (e.g. see draconic jadinko). Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 13:22, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Support Someone will need to make a fancy update field like with the charm logs, so the data can be changed without users having to wade through a mess they may not understand. TPRMFBucket detail.pngrwojy 13:26, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

If so, I'd suggest doing the same for the Jadinko data pages. They don't have fancy input boxes yet either. 14:20, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Strong support - I understand those will be two separate logs, one for seeds nest and one for ring nest, right? Very nice idea, about time. 5-x Talk 13:47, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

My current template suggestion is one template (and data batch) for all types of 'normal' nests (normal is defined as from woodcutting / Kingdom) together. It shouldn't be updated unless someone logs their seed, ring and egg nests. Another possibility is making a separate log/template for the seed nests, ring nests and egg nests, and a fourth template for the "seed nest : ring nest : egg nest" ratio. I already proposed this to someone before I started (look here), but they thought this might make things more confusing for users. Even if it would allow users to add data to each log separately. (Aka, we could use data from users that only track seed nests; which a single template won't allow us without skewing the results).
As for how to put it on the page itself, the views could allow us to split the single log into three separate entries, although that might not make it clear that they are all part of a single log (and data should be reported as such). 14:20, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
I think rings nests and seed nests should be listed/logged separately, they are two different items after all. You have no chance for a ring from a seed nest and vice versa. Also egg nests clearly indicate what type of egg is inside them so those need no log. What you're talking about is a log of types of nests received from Kingdom/Woodcutting, which is a completely different story... 5-x Talk 14:28, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
I am fine either way, whether to log them separately or not. My aim is to log both, however. "What is the probability of getting seed X from a seed nest" as well as "What is the probability of getting a seed/ring/egg nest". And while the 4 kinds of egg nests are visually different, I do not see why they shouldn't/couldn't be grouped together, they represent the same 'kind' of loot. 14:37, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
The first log you mention should be placed in the nest article. One log for the seed nest, one log for the ring nest. No need for logs for egg nests as they already show visually what they will give.
The second log you talk about could be made a project somewhere in Kingdom/Woodcutting talk pages, but it's much harder to measure (just imagine measuring a probability of getting a nest via woodcutting... would take hundreds of hours of chopping plus the chances are probably different for various trees... not to mention the effect of Rabbit foot necklace that would have to be measured. This is a huge task, a lot of work, a lot of manpower to even start getting some approximate percentages). 5-x Talk 14:47, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps the second log I mentioned was ill-worded. I did not mean "what is the chance for every-chop that a nest will drop", but rather "given that I will get a nest, what is the chance it will be either a seed, ring or egg nest." I doubt the tree chopped, or the rabbit-foot necklace affect the 'kind' of nest gotten; but rather only how often one is gotten. (Like how a Glory makes you get more gems, but to my knowledge does not change the distribution.) And I would still not use the data I have gathered so far to call that the distribution of the 4 different egg nests is exactly equal. Unless we have enough data to withstand the opposite hypothesis, I'd still like to see the data collected. 15:39, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Support - Very nice idea. (: The mention of a data namespace comes up every time we have one of these conversations. I think it's time to just make it already and transfer over the charms/jadinko logs/anything else we'd use in the future. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 16:37, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Support. Hair 01:33, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Support - Hair 01:33, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Support - Good idea, well done. Ronan Talk 07:16, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah - Sounds good. Does this mean we're finally getting a namespace for all our logs? Real Crazy 07:39, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Umm.... It could be an interesting logistical exercise, but I don't see why not. Move everything from Charm to a new Data namespace, there shouldn't be many pages to that need renaming to avoid confusion. Bird's nests can occupy two pages, one for rings, one for seeds. I've never done jadinko's, so I'm not sure what's needed for that. I'll see if Amaurice is around still and is willing to code something up for this. cqm 08:37, 13 May 2013 (UTC) (UTC)
Minor clarification in regards to User talk:Amaurice#Bird.27s_nest_logs, logs for Jadinko's already exist. Take the Common jadinko as an example, with its log data found [[Common jadinko/Data|here]]. They should be easy to transfer to another namespace as well, as to my knowledge they all occupy a separate subpage as well. 09:02, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

∿∿∿ - User:The Mol Man/Archive11#Re: Seed logs MolMan 23:40, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

If wanted, I could update AmauriceBot to process submission logs for birds nests and for the Jadinkos. It could take 2 or 3 days for me to make the change depending on what else I'm doing at the time.
There would also need to be some way to find the submission pages from the data pages, like the charms have the "log" parameter. For example, viewing the source of [[Charm:Goblin]] shows the "log=Goblin/Charm_log". This "log" parameter is used both by the Bot (for the updating) and the Template:Charm data to render the link to the submission log page.
Since I haven't done birds nests or Jadinkos myself for quite a while, I would also want any hints for the Bot to spot inconsistent or vandalised submission entries so it can discard them (e.g. do birds nests always only contain one item?). Amaurice talk 08:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, Bird's nests always contain a single item or seed. The current page states that "rarely it may be empty", but I have never seen this happen myself. As such, my current template suggestion calculates the total itself, rather than having a 'total' parameters (#hunted for Jadinkos and #killed for charm logs). We still have to decide what kind of template(s) we'll use however; even if everyone agrees that we want this logged ^^' . 08:30, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Support - Great idea, and also I support a name change. -- Recent uploads SpineTalkGuest book 01:36, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Support - Maybe change the namespace from Charm to Log/Logs/Data/Drops? Blaze_fire.png12.png 11:38, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Before I forget and someone emails Wikia simply asking them to rename Charm to Data, namespaces have to be empty to be renamed. It'll be easier to ask for a new namespace and delete the old one when we're done. cqm 22:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC) (UTC)
We should rename it to Strange. MolMan 23:01, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
l0l I get it JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 18:52, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
Data sounds good to me. Temujin 14:14, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Support - I have my reasons. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 22:49, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Support - Temujin 14:22, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Support - This is one I made for myself a while ago. --Quest point cape.png Yt'Haar-Mej-Joelthefrog1 Prayer cape (t).png 16:58, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Comment - I've seen your log and it's interesting. Just a question though: where does the initial percentage in your log come from? Chopping trees? (Then which trees? All trees have different chances) Kingdom management? Then which setting? Teaks/Maples/Mahoganies? All of them are different. Mole? (the seeds nest from mole is different again).

Like I said before, a log in this form does not show any significant value. Every type of nest should be listed/logged separately, an "overall" chance for nest types does exist but it varies in all of the situations listed above (plus it would be a giant project to test all possible nest sources like this). What you did is just dump all (or just one?) seed sources into 1 log and pretend you got any sensible result. What is of interest for people using a Bird's nest loot log is:

1. What's a chance of getting a seed x from the seeds nest? (plus the variant of the same for the mole nest seeds), and

2. What's a chance of getting a ring y from the rings nest?

The egg nests show already what they will give. The data gathered in one summed-up log is worthless. If your intention is to add the log in the current form to Bird's nest, then I'm going to change my stance to strong oppose. 5-x Talk 14:17, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

The nests from woodcutting are the same as the ones from Miscellania, iirc. The only different ones are the ones traded for bits of mole by Wyson. I may be wrong but nests from different trees will be identical; this would have to be proven by creating separate logs for every tree in the game and that would be a nightmare to maintain. Charms can be checked roughly after a few minutes - "I got 10 golds but only 4 greens and a blue, no crimson at all" but nests would be considerably harder to check since other than apple seeds being somewhat common, we have no idea at what rate any others are given. Real Crazy 15:19, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
The source for the data I currently have added to the template, was gathered from Kingdom management. From the Maple trees. My topic also clearly states that I do not consider the Bird's nests gotten from exchanging Mole drops, as those are different entities (even if they look the same and have the same name). If someone wants to gather data on those, be my guest, but they need to be put into a completely separate log.
The "interest" you note is already present in my log: we simply have to define a separate view on the data which calculates the % of for example the different seeds, based only on the total number of seeds nests, rather than the total number of nests logged altogether. As a quick example, the current template shows 14% chance to get an Acorn, and that you have a 62% chance (for sake of simplicity, just taking the lower end values) of getting a seed Bird's nest. , aka you have a 22.6% chance of receiving an Acorn from a seed Bird's nest.
I have at this time no reason to believe you are more/less likely to get seed/ring/egg nests from tree X. Just like to my knowledge you are not more likely to get an Uncut diamond from mining Adamantite ore, than from mining Iron ore. As such, my aim is to collect data on the overall chance of getting a type X nest (which I believe, does uniquely exist); as well as the chance of getting seed S from a seed nest, or ring R from a ring nest, etc. You are correct, an egg nests shows its content; that does not imply people wouldn't want to know how (un)likely it is to get an egg nest; or even more specific, what their chances are of getting a raven egg nest [given that they are going to get a nest].
Let me also add that the template I made is a suggestion of mine. Anyone is welcome to come up with another suggestion; and I gladly would welcome a debate on whether to have the one-all-encompassing template I so far suggested, or get a separate template and log for the various groups we want information on (and preferably with more than just us two discussing the matter). The point of the topic is first and foremost to get a consensus on "do we want to add a log for the Bird's nest loot on the respective page", not "do we want to add the template I made there".
(PS: Thank GOD for FF's cache, I did not want to retype all this because of conflicting edits.) IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 15:23, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Per my earlier comments, I support a separate seed nest log, separate mole seed nest log and separate ring nest log. I oppose an universal all-in-one log though. 5-x Talk 19:50, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Comment - Added some new data as an edit to the topic. Look here. All of my data can still easily be split into separate logs if so wanted. IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 16:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Comment - On a semi-related note, I just read that "They [Wishing well bush seeds] can also be gained though hunting during the Herblore Habitat activity." How does this affect the Jadinko seed logs we currently have? In one update they're outdated, I guess? IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 15:34, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I've gotten some of the other new seeds from jadinkos too, so yes, they're just outdated. Maybe we should wait to deal with that after the move to the new namespace though. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 19:37, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Support - This is helpful. If you take a look at the christmas cracker article, you will see the percentages of receiving a particular partyhat. Having the drop percentages on monster drop lines would be nice. Then have a gradient with a formula pertaining to the background colour of the cell in the table. In other words, if the drop percentage is 100%, the background colour will be cyan. For x, 99.9% > x > 0.1% would show a gradient from green to red. For example if an item is dropped 70% of the time, it would be considered Common which would have a green background. The shade of green changes more to red as the percentage of the drop lowers. I hope I made sense of this. NEcIfbf.png 04:28, May 22, 2013

This forum thread is strictly in regards to a log for Bird's nest loot. There have been forums in the past to discuss drop logs for all monsters, and these were never implemented (due to it being impossible to keep them accurate; the number of possible items is also many times larger). IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 08:34, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Close - A bird's nest loot log will be created -- Recent uploads SpineTalkGuest book 04:16, May 26, 2013 (UTC)