Forum:Articles for music pieces

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Forums: Yew Grove > Articles for music pieces
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This thread was archived on 16 December 2009 by Calebchiam.

Like my other Yew Grove proposal, this one is going to probably be a two-sided argument, or maybe just shot down straight away. Anyway, here goes. I think we should make an article for every music piece. Yes, an article for every dot point on this page. Why you may ask? Because there is quite a bit of information we can include on each article. Below I'll try and state what we can include:

  • Location of unlock*
  • Difficulty (maybe)
  • Instruments in the piece
  • Maybe other music facts (tempo, etc.)
  • Length of the song
  • Resemblance to other pieces (in RS, or real life)
  • A sample of the piece^
  • Real world allusions^
  • Quest-only?
  • Members?*
  • If we want to go into detail, location it is unlocked on a map
  • Maybe something about the theme of it (Reggae, fast-moving, jungle, etc.)
  • composer (if it is specific mod)
  • date of release

Those are off the top of my head. But that doesn't even include the other information that will be specific to each article. I can't find any policies that mention this so I am unsure if this is against any, or if any support it. I know a lot of you are adamant and are just going to oppose, but please try and consider it. We are now starting to make articles for all the dots on a list. Take the Mines as an examples. Discuss. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 07:48, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Proposal - Make an article for each of the music pieces in-game listed here.


Support - as proposer. Cheers, Really the noob Chicken7 >talk 07:58, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support Because Chicken threatened me if I didn't. >.> liar noob! NGRBucket detail.pngrwojy 07:50, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Good idea Twig Talk 772kZGs.png 07:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Weak Support - I think having an infobox for music would be a good place to put this info, although I'm not sure what else we can talk about in the body of such an article. On the other hand, having these infoboxes scattered around in location and quest articles seems unorganized. I'm definitely in full support of being more detailed about the game's music than we are now, anyway. --Quarenon  Talk 08:02, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - The articles would have no other information than what's listed for 95% of the songs. If you wanted more information about each song, we could set up some kind of table perhaps. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 08:20, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Out of those dot points I listed only the two points with the asterisks (*) are on Music. The two with ^ are only partial and not completed to their full extent. Most of those dot points would not fit well in a table and need a few sentences. Plus, the Music article is already pretty long/big. Imagine the size of it with all that extra information... Chicken7 >talk 08:25, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
Hmm... I see what you mean.. Also I've thought about it a while and You're right there's really no way to fit all that information in a table and still have it be readable. I still think that most of the songs will be nothing but an infobox with a sentence of article space, but I guess that's no different than some of the items here like Red cog. Changed to Support if for no other reason than that I don't care Lol kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 08:32, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support We willll most likely be the only fan site to have it, the music lovers will like it.--Degenret01 09:08, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support/Comment - This will be a very large task. I recommend we make a WikiGuild out of it in order to swiftly create this many articles. I'll be happy to contribute, it'll give me something more worthwhile to do than revert vandalism. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  09:55, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support No ther site seems to have this. Swiz Talk Review Me 10:18, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Great idea, per all. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 12:44, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - It'll cost a lot of time, but I do think that it's worth it. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 13:01, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support/questions - I support the idea of putting out information about music, but here are some interesting questions: 1. Should we have a seperate namespace for them, and 2. Should we not have them all in their different articles, but nearly all on one or a few articles? Butterman62 (talk) 13:31, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

1. I don't think a separate namespace would be realistic, as most of us heard the problems with having another namespace. I don't think we need another namespace for it, though. The 2 customs we have have their own namespace for various reasons. We have the exchange namespace so the templates can use them easily, also so they don't appear in Special:Random. I just don't see many benefits in it having its own namespace; I think mainspace articles are sufficient.
2. Not sure. Maybe some piece articles will be extremely small and may need to be merged. But with what? is the question. I think RS:G comes in here and maybe we should keep them separate. We can't substitute one song for another. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 14:09, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Though lets not give them all long trivia articles because you think a piece sounds like another one that you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nightgunner1 (talk) on 13:40, December 12, 2009 (UTC).

Support - This is actually a pretty cool idea, and you're right; there does seem to be a fair amount of information we could put in the articles. I'll try to help the best I can.  Tien  15:27, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all supporting. - TehKittyCatTalk Wikian-Book 15:28, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Wholehearted Support - Been waiting for this a long time now. I'll be willing to assist in anything needed. Also, I suggest that some of the current emotes under Holiday rewards should have articles too, or redirects if possible. --Fruit.Smoothie 18:49, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Although there is only about a paragraph or two worth of information on each track, one big article would be bulky and annoying to read. I think small articles are a good way to go. I would prefer if we kept the random trivia down though. What something sounds like seems quite subjective (perhaps mentioning they share a musical theme instead, for those music theorists). Release date (if known) would also be potential info for it. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 18:49, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

100% Support - It would be awesome to have this and quite helpful. Another thing I thought about doing (although quite hard) would be to make maps with highlighted zones for where the music track unlocks/plays, any thoughts? Quest point cape.pngTalk Newbie856 edit count Nomad guideMusic icon.png 21:17, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Eh, that was already in the proposal. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:47, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
Oh, sry then. Quest point cape.pngTalk Newbie856 edit count Nomad guideMusic icon.png 22:28, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
Comment - Lol, no problem mate. I didn't really make that dot point clear anyway. I think maps like that would be great, but the only problem I can think of is how would we get the correct borders and spots for it on a map. Like with the new update how music doesn't change until the piece is finished or you teleport/enter a tunnel. Anyway, we'll think of something. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 01:44, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all. --Iiii I I I 21:47, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per RS:G and the separation and documentation we did with each of the emotes. Let's become even more in-depth, shall we? Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!Loon is best buttlord 23:41, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Wait I'm kinda confused, do you mean having an article for every single music piece or having just one single article but put in lots of details about the music pieces? --Nup(T) 14:08, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

The general idea was to make an article for every single music piece of this page. There is no point having an article for them as there already is one, and if we add all those details, it'd be like the hugest article on the wiki. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 01:34, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Also per RS:G and noting that there is increasing in-game quests and content like Achievement Diaries that require a certain number of tracks to be unlocked, and that the music is often quest related as well, it would be nice to be able to link to specific articles which describe this music in more detail. There may even be a Music cape (currently rumored) in the future, so this is certainly something to support in general. Yes, this is a proposal to have an article on each and every piece of music. There are already some sound samples of the music on this wiki as it is, but we do need to be careful on doing that. Textual and graphical fair-use has been typically interpreted far more loosely than has been the case with audio files. --Robert Horning 16:23, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Actually Robert there's not much to worry about copyright-wise. The Copyright, Designs, and Patents Act, §29-30 clearly states that an audio work can be used in its entirety for the purposes of research and study. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 23:33, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
If you are correct Psycho, that'd be fantastic. Some people (don't look at me) actually enjoy listening to the RS music when they're not even playing it, so if we had the full pieces we would be a lot more popular. (VGMusic doesn't seem to have many pieces on RS here (scroll to bottom)) On one of the other wikis I was active on, we used to always record the video game music and upload it to the wiki, as seen here. We were not sure of copyrights, but the game developer took a look at our Wiki and said it looked great. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 01:34, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
For reference, the audio clips copyright issue was previously discussed at Forum:Image Policy Follow-up. --Quarenon  Talk 01:50, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
I would have to respectfully disagree here that what we are doing on this wiki is not research, study, nor educational use. This is a for-profit commercial wiki, so that rationale isn't really valid. This content is also licensed under the terms of the CC-BY-SA copyright license, and abusing fair use or fair dealing in such a way essentially invalidates that license for this content. Essentially, this is ensuring that we cannot share this project with others under the CC-BY-SA license. Yes, I realize that none of the participants are currently getting any kind of income from working on this project (including myself), but the R&D clause doesn't cut it. At best, the only legitimate argument for including a sound bite sample is for critical commentary, in a manner like you would find on a commercial radio or television station, or in this case with a commercial website when you see or hear a review about that music or sound sample. As for what governing law takes precedence (UK or US) for a website whose server is located in Florida with content copied from a UK web server, that is certainly something interesting to look at as well but for another thread. The principles are similar for both UK and US law in this case. --Robert Horning 14:55, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
P.S. This previous discussion also covered this topic in extensive detail, including others backing up my position here. --Robert Horning 15:01, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
We are pretty much hosted by Wikia. They are not the one who will be using it. An encyclopedia is for research, study and educational use. isn't that what we are? Cheers, 08:35, December 15, 2009 (UTC) (Chicken7 >talk)
No, an encyclopedia can be used and applied for research, study, and educational use, but the act of creating that encyclopedia or reference book is not an educational act. Educational use would be if you were a bona fide educator with real credentials employing the content explicitly for instructional use. A mass-produced textbook doesn't qualify for the same "educational" protections that a professor in a classroom setting would, and neither does an encyclopedia. Personal study is just that: Personal. What you can do in the privacy of your own home is quite a bit different than what is allowed on something that is mass-published and distributed to thousands or millions, like this website. Research is not publishing willy nilly everything in sight, but rather legitimate study and review of the subject (if it was music, in this case) and then publishing the results of that research in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Perhaps excerpts in the published study could be used to illustrate a particular point, but it doesn't permit the copying of content with impunity. In terms of what is permitted or not, you have to think in regards to this website as if it is a for-profit commercial entity. Besides, the terms of the CC-BY-SA license explicitly require the ability to re-use the content for commercial purposes. There are many reasons to preserve the context of the CC-BY-SA license, and we really should try to stay within those bounds as well that are well within legal limits too.
This is a common mis-conception that educational fair-use applies to projects like the RS Wiki and Wikipedia. It does not. Fair-use, fair dealing, and other issues have been tackled on Wikipedia, with a fairly substantial philosophical camp that has emerged over the years that all fair-use ought to be deleted completed and removed from the project. Some non-English versions of Wikipedia in fact have a complete prohibition of fair-use explicitly because it is so toxic to work with from a legal viewpoint. The current Wikipedia standard is at wikipedia:Wikipedia:Non-free content. I'm not saying that standard necessarily applies to us (certainly the Wikimedia Foundation policy doesn't apply here), but it is important to understand why this policy was enacted in the first place. Unfortunately, I had a hand with the current fairly restrictive Wikipedia policy too, when I put a bug into the ear of the Wikimedia Foundation general counsel and pointed out some liability problems to having some abusively presumed fair-use content on the wiki and he agreed that it was a problem. --Robert Horning 13:38, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all, it would give alot of new editors a chance to create articles and help with a major project. Plus, Runescape music is just plain cool, and always deserves an article for itself. (we would have to create many articles, 614 more from this date)--Cheers, Off-hand ascension crossbow.pngYodaAscension crossbow.png 01:46, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all, sounds a nice idea to do that. I normally gotta scroll down in the Music article to search info about any music, and it kinda tires me looking at all that stuff... It'll make things simpler to make an article for each song. Quest point cape detail.png Brux Talk 14:41, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - There are a very large number of music pieces, therefore, I'm willing to write up a bot to help create stub articles using the information collected at Music#Music_track_list. It should be able to pull the music sample link, whether it is a members song, and the location from that list. It can recreate the list to have wikilinks to the articles, or we can instead rely on some category for them. --Quarenon  Talk 08:52, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

If you can do that, itd be great. I've already started an exmple article (Norse Code), althogh I'm at a very bad keyboard now, so cant type much. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 11:46, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Support - per all. But we need to get a standardised format for the Music articles before we finalised this discussion, and started creating the articles. Since Norse Code has already been created, that would be a good place to start. Some of the things we need:

Can I work on these first before anyone (or bot) starts creating articles?   az talk   12:24, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done - I expanded the Norse Code article with the navbox and the infobox. The infobox only contains basic information, but it could be expanded further with other details mentioned in the beginning of this thread.   az talk   13:31, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
Cool, but would it be possible to add the number release, for example, Final Destination was released as the 616th music. If you add it there I will do my possible to find as many as possible numbers of musics. Quest point cape.pngTalk Newbie856 edit count Nomad guideMusic icon.png 21:16, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
Good work Az. I was going to get to that laer when I got my comp back, but you've saved me the hassle. To answer to Newbie, I was going to do that but the information isn't available. To get that date in the article, I had to find the release off The Fremennik Isles article. If you can somehow get those numbers, it'd be fantastic. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 00:18, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
We probably will want to finalize the list of items the infobox can display, that way the stub articles can list all the available parameters but leave the unknown ones blank, as we've done for the other infoboxes. Then we can reference the infobox in MediaWiki:Newarticletext and have a corresponding template preloader. The "prototype" article we have looks great though; once we've decided on the formatting and content, I can start creating the stubs. --Quarenon  Talk 00:40, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Request for closure - There has been unanimous support for this project, and this thread was asking for permission to make the articles. We are drifting towards discussing what we're going to do, now. I propose we close this and move the discussion to a WikiGuild (no proposal req.) and then discuss each aspect of the project (a bot, licensing, layout, midis, etc) Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 01:58, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Support closure - What Chicken said. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  02:00, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Closed - There is unanimous support for articles for music pieces to be created. C.ChiamTalk 02:06, December 16, 2009 (UTC)