Difference between revisions of "Forum:About the German remark on the Berserker page"

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Latest revision as of 20:37, 13 June 2019

Forums: Yew Grove > About the German remark on the Berserker page
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This thread was archived on 13 June 2019 by Liquidhelium.

Hey, I'd like to discuss something here with the full editing community. I was yesterday taking part in the little project User:XoRMiAS/German search terms and added some redirects for German skills to the English pages. So that users on german worlds who might not know about the English terms have not a barrier in using the in-game integration and searching for the term in German. This is in my opinion very important. As not every German knows any term in English but is able to understand the text in English when reading an article about it. All skills went fine to expect on the German term for Slayer: "Berserker". Unfortunately, there is an ability with the same name in English. So I decided to make a remark for this potentially high traffic search term for the German community. Which I think is here very important. However, this remark got removed and said that other languages information should be limited to redirects. While I do understand this decision in general, I'd like to discuss this decision. I think there should be an exception for this special page since there is an in-game integration and the wiki shouldn't be focusing on their own interests and instead should also focus on interests of other community that do not have an official wiki integration. As this is about a fundamentally key component of the game - a remark for a skill. I hope this makes sense and welcome to read your input. Bloody111 (talk) 13:05, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

Comment - Hi, I was the user who removed a few of these references. If I recall correctly, the original intention of this project years ago (started by Cook) was to create redirects for item names in other languages (not just German) to our item pages, because of the incompleteness of inter-wiki Wiki(a)s. This was not done to discredit the other language wikis at the time (pt-br especially, since they've now been forked), but more to 'complete' our Wiki, the English one. If a person happens to search for the German word, then they will get the English equivalent... most of the time. Unfortunately, there's no way we can convey these anomalies without mixing German and English content.

This is an English encyclopedia on RuneScape matters. All content should be written in English, referenced in English, and linked to via English means. I believe the redirects are an exception because they're more 'under the hood' content. It just doesn't make sense to mix and match German/English meanings when we are an English wiki. One way would be to have inter-wiki external links via Template:External, but hosting a German RS Wiki is another discussion. H rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).pngChompy_bird_hat_ogre_marksman.pngCrystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 13:14, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Keep status quo - per Haidro. We're an English wiki, and the redirects for terms in other languages to their English equivalents are just a courtesy. jayden 13:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Comment - I think it might be a bit distracting when put into the article. I think this wiki should accommodate more for the English-speaking audience than for the German one i.e. don't add German references to articles like [1] or override commonly used shortcuts like [2]. However, as Haidro said it could be done via Template:External. In my opinion, we could add that template when the name of an article is used differently in the German version of the game and link internally to the article the German phrase would redirect to. Luck of the dwarves.png XoRMiAS Completionist cape detail.png 13:45, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

{{External}} only is for linking to the other wikis in our wiki family, like OSRSW and RSCW, not for other languages though like PT-BR. Other language use plain interlang links, e.g. pt:Guthix for the PT-BR article about Guthix. So if there would be a German RSW, links could be added to that wiki on this one, but like Haidro said, that's a different discussion altogether. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 14:21, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Why shouldn't Template:Indicators be used for different languages? The top icons are very useful. The PT-BR wiki is using them to link to this wiki (e.g. pt:Situações Extremas). I think it would be nice to allow top icons to different languages and since German and French don't have official wikis, they could link to English articles with the correct meaning instead. Luck of the dwarves.png XoRMiAS Completionist cape detail.png 15:21, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Because that's not what they're used for. Other language wikis (currently only Portuguese) are linked in the sidebar when you're viewing a page that has an interlanguage link. Indicators are used for other main (English) wikis for relevant games (OSRS, Classic). While pt-br is using the indicators to link to us, that's not what we use them for jayden 15:30, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm not entirely willing to just go with the "that's just not how we do things" argument - just because that's not how we've done things in the past doesn't mean we can't do it in the future. The indicators are a lot more noticeable than sidebar links, the fact that other wikis have such noticeable links trains people not to look for such links in the sidebar unless they already know that's where they're supposed to look, the sidebar looks bad in reader mode when those links are present, reader mode shows indicators but hides the sidebar by default, and it's not like there'll ever be a whole lot of other language wikis anyway. -Hourglass (2011 Hallowe'en event) detail.png I Am Fendse Talk III The Spark.png- 10:29, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Make no change - Per 'Dro and Jayden. I've thought about this before, and I have added a few German place name redirects myself. It's hard to account for these false friend situations without making a relatively substantial change to how we deal with languages. We are an English wiki so it wouldn't be practical to accommodate other language names any more than how we do right now.    SuperiosityQuick chat button.png : I want: Oily fishing rod   23:07, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Status quo for redirects, support Otheruses/disambiguation - As per Haidro et al.. Should you wish, you could create pseduo-namespaced pages, e.g. "de:Berserker", that would redirect to the English articles. I don't know how likely it is those would be used though, that's a question for German-speaking players - Rawny (talk) 00:51, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Updated - I (still) disagree with changing/replacing English redirects, i.e. this should not happen. However, following cqm's point below, I agree that using {{Otheruses}} (or similar) is reasonable. If that is done, it should follow the same conventions as we presently do for general {{Otheruses}} usage. In other words, in the case of "Berserker", a link to Slayer should be added to Berserker (disambiguation) because that's already in an {{Otheruses}} on Berserker (a second {{Otheruses}}/similar should not be added for this case) - Rawny (talk) 02:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Status quo - I understand the concern, but is the English wiki. As such, I don't think any other language should be - as rude as it may sound - put on an equal level as English for this particular wiki. Also per Rawny Attamaris (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Support - The reality of the situation is that there is no equivalent German resource and that if a user playing the German game uses the new wiki integration while searching for slayer, they'll end up with something that is decidedly not the slayer page. I think this is a prime opportunity to use the other uses/seealso template as happened in this case and is absolutely what I would have done in this scenario as well (or at least add it to the disambiguation page). cqm talk 19:18, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

If we cater to the German language, we have to cater to French as well (and what about pt?). I agree that it would be great if navigation existed for these edge cases, but the issue is that these clog up the top of our articles (eg). It makes zero sense that we should be saying "If you're German, and you meant to search for X, but you're here, click this link" when we're an english wiki - this benefits such a little percentage of viewers. H rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).pngChompy_bird_hat_ogre_marksman.pngCrystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 04:10, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't see an issue with doing the same for French seeing as there's no equivalent resource in the language either. Pt-br is more complex as we have interwiki links available, so I'd be inclined to avoid using hatnotes or disambiguation links in that case.
With regards to clutter, RuneScape:Style_guide/Disambiguation states we should have a disambiguation page of there's 3 or more links for a page. Looking at those guidelines (which I'll admit I never have before), it seems like these links are a good fit for that part of the style guide. Seeing as that means you'd have one hatnote at most, I don't see where the clutter comes from. Is there something I'm missing here? cqm talk 20:06, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Allow on disambiguation pages, neutral on hatnotes - It's basically all just redirects with an extra step, if we're doing redirects then adding a link to Slayer on the Berserker (disambiguation) page shouldn't be a problem. I can kind of see the argument for not cluttering the tops of articles though, so I'll stay neutral there. -Hourglass (2011 Hallowe'en event) detail.png I Am Fendse Talk III The Spark.png- 10:29, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Odd Question - Okay, I must inquire, but how often are other languages searched for? I do remember that there was a way to search popular search terms on the hellsite but I've blanked on it. Twig Talk 772kZGs.png 23:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think we have that information as easily accessible anymore, but to get it someone runs a script against the server logs looking for requests that didn't match a page (i.e. 404s). I don't think it's hard, it just requires someone who has access to collect them.
As for the reality of how often they're searched for, it's a bit harder. Many of our views come from Google, so that skews the results to some extent. People might be searching for a term we don't cover and we'd never know. Similarly, some people use the opensearch API provided by the wiki so they can search directly from their browser. I think we can track that, but I'm not sure of we do or ever have. Additionally, the wiki integration may provide some different results as well depending on how it was implemented (I'm assuming it uses opensearch as well). cqm talk 00:40, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Status quo - I think redirects are fine when they don't conflict with English. But adding additional headers to pages just makes the pages cluttered. Using {{Otheruses}} to accommodate only a small portion of people unnecessarily pushes the more relevant info further down the page. It sucks that we can't accommodate other languages more easily, and it'd be great if we could, but I don't think the benefits of doing so are better than the losses. ɳex undique 02:07, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Closed - The Berserker article will not contain a reference to the Slayer skill in German. --LiquidTalk 20:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)