Forum:A new way to organise projects

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This thread was archived on 21 June 2012 by Urbancowgurl777.

This follows on from some of the comments found in Forum:Remove the Wikiguilds.

The wikiguilds were unanimously decided to be an abject failure, a relic from the past. However, Chicken7 summed up a need for something like the wikiguilds.

I think some of you fail to see the reality of the situation. You can't just be bold and finish everything the WikiGuild requires. The Music Article WikiGuild calls for a huge addition of information for our music articles; how could one or two users do this on the spot all by themselves with no coordination? And how can it be said this is already covered by the Yew Grove? The Yew Grove is a place to pass proposals. In a way, the WikiGuilds are a way to implement them. It's sad that rarely happens.

With the passing of Forum:Maps! we currently use Fergie's userspace to vaguely co-ordinate the expansion of the Map namespace. The problem is that it has low publicity. Not many editors are going to notice something hidden away in a sandbox somewhere. It would be much easier to have a easily found page for people to rread and perhaps decide to contribute to. RuneScape:Projects RS:TODO is generally used for tasks that can be easily completed by someone being bold, and this project doesn't really seem to fit there. I would be surprised if it was the only time we have this problem.

So, does anyone have any ideas about how we could overhaul the wiki-guilds or perhaps build something entirely new for this particular project? Use it as a test case maybe?

Discuss. cqm talk 14:53, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Comment - Perhaps we could have one page with a list of current projects and link to it in the nav bar. The projects could still be hosted in the userspace but having a list of them all would solve the "unseen" issue. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 15:04, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

We do have that. It's under Community, and then Current Projects. The problem is, it hasn't been updated. Blaze_fire.png12.png 15:09, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
We don't have a central page that lists all current projects. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 15:10, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
That's a good idea. A simple RuneScape:Projects/List would be a nice addition. Ronan Talk 15:15, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
Isn't that what the to-do list is supposed to be for though? I mean, yeah, what you're proposing would be useful, but I don't see why we would need it if something like it already exists. Blaze_fire.png12.png 15:17, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
Without trying to offend anyone, both of the entries on that page currently are just vague. The first just mentions that all quests need a new picture, without any mention of which have been done or what is left to do. The second is just a hint of an idea with no input into what it might become left to someone who may stumble across it sometime in the near future. What I'm proposing is going to take up significantly more space than should be used on the to-do list.
Take the lores project for example. It sets out to transcript every book, every quest and every useful bit of dialogue that contributes to the understanding of lore as we know it. And when that's done it will be there to maintain a list of lore related pages that can be easily accessed when something new arises. In essence it's a huge undertaking but can you imagine having something that size on the to-do list? It would be a mess that would take over the page. cqm talk 16:27, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
Well considering how you mention it that way, yeah, you have a good point. Still though. Should the to-do list just be deleted or archived? Blaze_fire.png12.png 17:16, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
What about my original comment? sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 17:23, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
Definitely have it in the nav bar. Maybe put it in the "On the Wiki" section? Blaze_fire.png12.png 17:25, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
A page listing current projects would certainly alleviate the current problems with publicity. cqm talk 18:23, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
Wikia are a bunch of idiots and won't let us tamper with their precious On the Wiki tab, so unfortunately no. 222 talk 05:36, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

We can edit it to some extent, the "About" and "Disclaimer" tabs were added in specifically by us when the NavBar was introduced. It would make more sense to have it in the Community section anyway though. Ronan Talk 06:14, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

My understanding of the situation was that we aren't allowed to remove links, hence it's uneditable under [[MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation]], but we are allowed to add in links should we feel the need and they don't conflict with what is on there already. That was the impression I got from this anyway. Then again, I would agree that such a link would be best suited to the Community tab anyway. cqm talk 09:44, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that there are far more important things we can link in that tab. A link in the Community tab seems fine. 222 talk 05:06, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - The to-do list needs to be reworked and a guideline for listings need to be created to ensure that projects are Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Timely. Not all problems can be solved by deleting them and hoping they aren't missed. 222 talk 05:36, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps add in guidelines for suggested projects like show exactly what there is to be done. For the quest image task there at the moment a list of quests awaiting images would probably suffice. Then following the proposal an establishment of a team who would be willing to work on it and then they sign off each completed part of the task (we currently sign off each stage of map here which seem to work quite well). That way, we know it's being done, we know there is a group working on it and hopefully that adds a measure of timely-ness to it as well. cqm talk 09:49, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
We could transclude a section within our userspace project page that has all of the "specific" info yall are talking about. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 13:31, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I agree that the to-do list could be reworked a bit, and think it'd be the best place to put stuff. Guidelines should allow consensus on removing items from the to-do list Project pages definitely have a bit more potential, but they get to be such an incredible mess, and we don't seem to have a sizeable enough community to even fulfill most projects. Hofmic Talk 23:49, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - How about instead of a list of projects, use [[MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation]] to link to them directly, with the To-do list at the top? Only thing is, I'm not sure how many links can be sensibly contained within such a menu. There doesn't seem to be any actual limit, but past 10 or so starts to look cluttered. Does anyone know what projects are currently active? cqm talk 23:17, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

I get the feeling that such a list will get rather lengthy and poorly maintained. 222 talk 05:06, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
[1]. However, I would be willing to update such a list and I don't think it would require a lot of maintenance. It's not like these projects are finished quickly. Also, I don't think the list will get lengthy at all. I can only think of three things to even put there off the top of my head (Joey's SoF drops, Maps, Lores). sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 05:43, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
And if Fergie took a leave of absence, all it would take is a quick request on RS:AR. Wiki-navigation is one of the less complicated MediaWiki pages, so it's not like it's going to be hard to find someone to edit it. cqm talk 09:38, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
I think the limit is high enough that we won't ever run into a limit issue (just tested by copying/pasting a bunch of links, all showed up (much to my scroll bar's dismay)). So re-organizing RS:TODO and having the links in navigation would be a good idea imo. If we do ever come to a problem where there are too many active projects at once, then we can do like we do for the rest of navigation - list the five or so most recent/used projects and have the rest in a list on RS:TODO or whatever. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 20:29, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I like that. The pages would be in the "RuneScape" namespace? Also, it'd be nice to have guidelines for what could be considered a project and what wouldn't, so we don't end up with every item on the to-do list becoming a project (eg, a new quest being released usually plops a ton of links to related pages that have to be updated, but it doesn't really need its own project). I propose that to have a "project page", the project must (1) have at least three individuals willing to work on it, (2) be something that wouldn't generally be done normally over the course of time (for example, a quest guide gets updated when people notice it, but people generally won't go moving maps to a new namespace with new standards without knowing about it) and (3) require at least a sizeable amount of work (use common sense; we don't need a project to add a template to a dozen pages, although something sizeable like the map project isn't something one person can complete in a few hours). Hofmic Talk 21:41, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
Nooo. That would be exactly like WikiGuilds which failed. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 21:45, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
I believe most of the larger projects are proposed in some form or other (correct me if I'm wrong), although there are exceptions. The Map project was essentially created with Map:Runespan Upper Level. At this point we realised the width constraints of the mainspace required a proper namespace (that map started out in the Calc namespace whilst waiting on a new namespace) and then grew from there. The guidelines went through the Yew Grove as did the idea for the project, but if we limit a project to passing these guidelines before it can even be started then it's going to fail before it ever started.

I think my point here is that if there is consensus that a project is a project then it can be considered as such. I don't know if we need to create a set of guidelines for this or even a specific page to get consensus on it's status, but there does seem to be a need for some kind of formalised proceedings or we could find ourselves with a dozen minor projects added in because there are no real grounds to refuse them status as a project.

I agree that RS:UCS is a good way to determine if a project is sizeable enough to be determined a project, as do I agree that a project needs to be something that is not normally covered in normal editing although something like the money making guides overhaul may be considered a project due to it's scale. I disagree with the limit on editors though. The Lores project has pretty much been done solely by myself. I transcripted the entire of Nadir except one option towards the end. It currently stands at almost 50kb and the 31st longest page on the wiki. If you take :Category:Contains Transcript, which currently holds 0 pages: a category set up for the Lores Project with roughly 80% of those transcripts written by myself, with the rest being ones found on the RSOF or [[w:c:runescapelores|The Lores Wiki]] and a handful of additions by random editors. Surely this is proof that whilst a project can be daunting it can compete as a project at the hands of a single dedicated editor? cqm talk 22:27, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
That is a good point, although the map project actually did have a formal yew grove thread (which passed) a while back, although nobody did anything about it until recently (kudos to the Cook). Regarding the lores project, though, it obviously does have the interest of at least two editors (even if not initially, and even though the work is primarily done by one person). Of course, the lores project is in your userspace, isn't it? Hard to publicize a project when it's in such an unknown location, which is the point of this thread, right? Hofmic Talk 22:37, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
...Kudos to the Cook? Yes that's the point of this thread, so what is YOUR point? I don't understand. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 22:42, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
I was aware of Forum:Maps! as it's where all the guidelines being used in the Map Project came from. The point was that the forum didn't inspire any great movement and as a result did not acquire any editors to create the project upon the forum's closure. I guess the overall idea behind this thread is to create what the wikiguilds did well at: a place where projects were publicised not hidden away in our userspaces.

On another note I did come across User:Psycho Robot/Project Mypet, which to me is an ideal format for a project, if not a little textwall-ish. It has an introduction, including a description of a need for such a project, a guide on how to go about helping out and even a small discussion area to talk about the project. It looks like a good base to build on in terms of project formatting. cqm talk 23:00, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - Omg, thanks for quoting me in a YG thread, Cam! =D Anyway, I think this is definitely a big issue with our wiki that we need to attend to. I wanted to point out that the link added to the Nav-bar links to RS:TODO, but the TODO page is outdated and has no mention of the projects listed in the Nav-bar. Another idea could be to have a 'Collaboration of the Month', where editors particularly work on that one project. We could link to the project in the Wiki News section of the Main Page. Chicken7 >talk 08:20, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Outdated? The only one outdated is "Removing GameGuide Citations", which is completed, hence the removal from RS:TODO. I definitely agree with the Collaboration of the Month. Blaze_fire.png12.png 06:14, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
I can see collaboration of the month falling flat on it's face somehow. I might just be pessimistic though. cqm talk 11:12, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe, but we could give it a try. Blaze_fire.png12.png 18:56, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

So far

If anyone feels I've jumped the gun with any of these points, let me know Wink

  • Create a list of current projects alongside the existing RuneScape:To do list. Perhaps use RuneScape:Projects (currently a redirect for the Wikiguilds)? (edited) RuneScape:Projects would then act as a hub from which the to-do list could be accessed along with all active projects. (/edited)
  • Use [[MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation]] to display a list of current active projects. These projects should be stored in the Community tab. Urbancowgurl777 has volunteered to keep this list up to date, although we could keep a small guide on how to update the list should Fergie go inactive for any length of time. Not all admins are comfortable with/used to editing MediaWiki pages after all.
  • Should the number of active projects become more than 5, then the most recent should be shown on the navigation menu, with the rest being available on a list of projects.
  • No opinion has been stated regarding userspaces being unsuitable for hosting projects, and seeing as the Wikiguilds proved the project namespace is largely unsuccessful for hosting projects there seems no real reason to change this. Keeping the project in a userspace also establishes an editor that should be willing to fulfil the projects aims and direct/help any other interested parties.
  • A set of guidelines needs to be established for both projects and tasks on the to-do list. Use common sense to determine classification of a project. Next to that the guidelines should ensure that a project is specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and timely.
  • Establish a project collaboration of the month in an effort to propel it forward and gather publicity for it in the hope that those who help out during that month, will continue after that time is up.
  • (Not covered but should be here) Projects should have a dedicated project page. 2 of the ones named below are in sandboxes, which isn't really a long term solution.

Points to clarify:

  • How a projects classification should be decided. Those that pass through the yew grove without a generic "be bold" response should probably be a project. Should the majority of guidelines be decided here too? What about tasks added to the to-do list that turn out to be the tip of the iceberg. Should those then go through the YG too?
  • What should a project have? I think it should include tasks and guides relevant to those tasks. Organisation is another thing I feel every project should have. Stuff like navigational templates for subpages, with each subpage dedicated to a specific part of the project. Some projects will not be as big and this will easily fit on one age without being overly long and off-putting, so UCS when applying organisation.(edited) To clarify on this, whilst a project's organisation could probably be left down to RS:UCS, it would be advantageous to have a set of optional guidelines that make sure we don't end up with messy, uninviting projects that go nowhere. (/edited)

Current projects:

I think that's everything covered. Hopefully if every point gets discussed projects may get a bit more life breathed into them. cqm talk 00:17, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Added a couple of clarifying points following a conversation with Fergie in s:c. cqm talk 10:54, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
I think if we file the 2 points to clarify under UCS, this thread could be passed. ;3= Though that may not be the best option. But it's not like anyone has any bright ideas... sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 03:47, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I oppose creating another Projects page. This would be recreating the WikiGuilds in everything but name. Based on our current activity level, small, individually controlled, fairly informal projects would be most successful. I think the to do list should be augmented with level 2 sections containing a quick introduction and link to projects not run on the to do list page itself. 222 talk 11:14, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

But the projects page is just a list linking to our userspace projects.. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 16:38, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
The idea behind the Projects page is to have a link to very active project and the to-do list. It's just an introduction to the projects you might find on the wiki. What you've suggested we add to the to-do list is what I had in mind for the projects page, just without the bloating of the to-do list tasks. Perhaps add in some project guidelines (not policies) to help new projects get off the ground. If this seems unnecessary then can we at least have RuneScape:Projects redirect to RuneScape:To do list? cqm talk 01:30, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
I can't see any problem with that. After all, Redirects are cheap. 222 talk 02:03, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Closed - RuneScape:Projects will be redirected to RS:TODO. I'll make a list of long-term community-accepted projects on the to-do list under a new section. The navigation bar will be updated to reflect these projects. Projects will continue to be hosted in the userspace namespace - the to-do list and navigation bar are to help with project advertising. How we classify a project will fall under RS:UCS. If users disagree on whether something should be displayed as a navigation-bar-accepted project or not, they can take it to the YG or ask for others' opinions.

I urge those of you who host these projects to clearly update the project pages so that people who find them through the navigation bar or the to-do list can easily find out what's going on. Most of these projects are heard about from word of mouth, and thus might not have detailed explanations. After I've spoken with the project hosters so I know what the project is about too, I'll update the to-do list and navigation bar. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 16:24, June 21, 2012 (UTC)