Forum:A new kind of model viewer...

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This thread was archived on 28 July 2015 by Liquidhelium.

Hi everyone! We recently figured out that the Adventurer's Log character viewer does much more than it might appear. By waiting for the model to load and then changing the string used to set the user's appearance, calling (for example)

Module.avatar.module.ccall("SetAppearance", "void", ["string"], ["AAAAAAABcgABHAEmAWEBIgEqAQ6zIwAAAAAAABAQyAAAAAAAAAqL"]);

in your JavaScript console, you can directly change the model shown. Fiddling with the string, we found that the Adventurer's Log model viewer essentially works as a general-use model viewer, supporting equipment (including unreleased stuff), NPCs and monsters, and all sorts of scenery. Perhaps most important for us, it also supports item models.

Exactly how to modify this string to get what we want is still somewhat of a mystery, but there's a bit of information at the bottom of API and we'll add more as soon as we figure it out. If we screw around with the WebGL context, we can also rotate the model arbitrarily, zoom, and change the camera position.

The upshot is that we should, in the imminent future, be able to automatically take images of any NPC, any detailed item, any monster, or any piece of scenery that we want, at whatever angle we want and however large we want, with transparency already applied. This will be a massive improvement over the current method of using the Orb of oculus, which has been the standard for about six years. I really think this model viewer will revolutionize the way we take images on the wiki.

Potential issues

There are a few problems with the model viewer that make it not a perfect replacement yet.

  • The lighting is a bit different than the current ingame renderer. Compare [1] to File:Kringk.png. This might be a game breaker for now -- it's up to you to decide. However, this is using the same renderer as the upcoming C++ NXT client, so while this lighting scheme may be improved, we can be pretty confident that the final version will be the same as whatever the NXT client uses.
  • The anti-aliasing on the edges is bad, to say the least. This is something that I think can be solved by taking an extremely large image to begin with, and scaling it down.
  • We still don't understand everything about how the information in the string is encoded. For example, it's not clear how to change the colors of one of the models, which is crucial for DIIs.
Questions to answer
  • Does anyone have a problem with taking images this way instead of with the Orb of oculus? It bears some similarites to the multi-year clusterfuck that was us debating whether or not to use one of the model viewers based on the Jagex cache. However, I argue this is entirely different, as it is a model viewer supported (perhaps inadvertently) by Jagex, hosted on runescape.com.
  • Should we start using this right now, or should we wait until the lighting matches the client (presumably later this year)? Should we use it regardless for unobtainable things like Mod Dolan's rubber duck?

That's all for now. Hopefully most of this makes sense -- I'm sure I left a lot out, but the main takeaway should be that making these kinds of images is about to get a whole lot easier. ʞooɔ 11:32, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Strong support - This is pretty huge. Being able to take a picture of close to anything currently in the game (and things not in the game) is pretty amazing. I myself don't have an issue with the lighting, if the NXT client has the same lighting we might as well use it straight away. As for the copyright issues, as you said these come straight from Jagex's website so I don't think it will be a problem. I am all for this, as soon as possible. User talk:ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of User talk:ThePsionic ThePsionic Special:Contributions/ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of Special:Contributions/ThePsionic 11:38, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Comment - If the plan is to use this on a large scale for all (future) images used, shouldn't this be run by Jagex / their community team, just to be safe? IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 11:52, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

I reached out to them about it. Awaiting a response. ʞooɔ 11:53, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
I agree that they should help us figure out how to use it better and to the way we want to use it. Ozank Cx 12:00, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
I very much doubt anyone can actually explain to us how it works beyond the string encoding. It's js compiled from C++ - it's like picking apart minified, obfuscated spaghetti code and that's where it's being nice to us. If it was me, I'd just let us get on with it as they likely don't know how to manipulate it client side themselves. cqm 19:42, 20 Jul 2015 (UTC) (UTC)

Comment - Probably worth noting that getting NPCs to use the correct animation can be a pain. It's simple enough for NPCs that use the human rig, but others can be more difficult. It's somewhat harder but still doable for races with multiple members, as the attack and death anims for one of them can be obtained from the bestiary, and their idle anims are usually close by. Since most members of the same race share the same set of animations, the idle animation can then be saved for future use. For one of a kind NPCs like say Commander Zilyana, if they aren't in the bestiary, finding the correct anim would be extremely time consuming, and they may look awkward without an animation.

Also, I'm of the opinion that in-game images should be preferred over images taken from the adventurers log, for the time being at least. Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 12:06, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

We have a list of NPC animations available. This shouldn't be a problem. ʞooɔ 14:11, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Comment - Let's generate another almost 200kb of text in a single thread! --LiquidTalk 13:16, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - Colours are extremely off, and images of NPCs etc. should be without LD or other colour modifications. I guess we could make an exception for cutscene-only characters with tiny images (if they aren't in the bestiary) or impossible DIIs, but in general, usage of this thing should be discouraged. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 14:02, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Will your stance change when the client looks exactly like this? ʞooɔ 14:07, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
No. I also highly doubt that models will look crap like that (with LD turned off) in the new thingy. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 14:29, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
We're the RuneScape Wiki. Things look like whatever we say they look like. MolMan 14:32, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
Lol. :P But yeah, we should have images of stuff how their model is, and not enhanced by stuff like LD or with limbs noclipping through grass or with huge saucepans photoshopped to their chest. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 15:12, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand. This is literally the new client. ʞooɔ 17:08, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
You're not saying that everything is actually going to look bleached like that in-game when they release it, are you? O.O They did say there'll be more graphics options in the new client though, so I assume this model viewer has LD and extra LD and stuff turned on, whereas we can turn it off in-game to show the true colours. Hopefully. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 17:24, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Support - Can we just unban model viewers. It's an artifact of a dumber wiki. MolMan 14:13, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Comment - Would this be for all images that the model can display? If so, I'd prefer sticking to in game OOO images for things we can currently take images of (as the model looks different to in-game), but for future things/things we don't currently (can't get) images of then this seems great Star Talk ayy lmao ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 18:53, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Support - For making me reminisce to the old wiki (also for being good) Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 22:11, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Support - Because I love that Friendly, Safe Working Environment. --Jlun2 (talk)

Hi. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 07:39, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

Support - It's good to be able to use this for images as an alternative. This is not to suggest that we should have pictures that were taken with the viewer replaced by those in the Java client because it's the status-quo. Eventually all there will be is the NXT client as the Java client is scheduled to be removed at some point once the NXT client has suitably replaced it. The viewer is using emscripten which is what the NXT client will use to replace the existing HTML5 client very soon. Ryan PM 01:37, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

Comment - I'm assuming due to the extra space around the viewer that these images are often smaller than what can currently be achieved with the OoO in game. Is this an issue, or are we going to ignore it as most DIIs are scaled down before they get put on pages anyway? cqm 08:11, 21 Jul 2015 (UTC) (UTC)

Actually the string used for the viewer can be manipulated to focus much closer on the object at hand. Like this (as demonstrated by Cook):
Module.avatar.module.ccall("SetAppearance", "void", ["string"], ["AEABQAFAAUABQAFAAUABQAFAAUABQAFAAUABnHoAACAAAYABXvEAASMyDDcQAwAADAAAAAqL"])
Ryan PM 22:44, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
We can also zoom in as far as we want or make the canvas arbitrarily large. The picture of Kringk that I linked is about 5000x5000 and was obtained from the viewer. ʞooɔ 01:18, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

Support - It would indeed be much easier to make image with this of stuff that's rare like the aformentioned Mod Dolan's rubber duck. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 12:07, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

Comment - From what I've sorta read, I have to agree with Fswe. Sorry Cook. It's really hard to believe they'll keep the white-washed graphics. This is obviously an oversight. If you fail to realize that, then I feel hopeless for you. I have to say though, for certain subject we realistically can't get an image of, I guess the shitty white-wash look is a good replacement for not having a file at all. We shall see when the new client comes out and has been refined over the months to come after its initial release. If employees at Jagex act like this dude, I'll play as Ashton Kutcher in this scene: Original video sMZBK5h.pngiisDlt8.png23:16, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

I thought Jeffwang got banned... ʞooɔ 01:11, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
The most Jeffwang-y thing since 2010 Sir. Korasi's sword.png Archmage Elune  TalkHS Void knight deflector.png fetus is my son and I love him. 01:45, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Fusswell. --dDbvitC.pngScuzzy Betahib8CAd.png 17:16, July 24, 2015 (UTC)

Support - pretty cool --Iiii I I I 02:29, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Comment - If anyone is curious as to how some of these will be done, you can use the RS:AL3D Viewer's javascript in the Developer's Tools console of Chrome (if you don't want to make it a userscript) on the page to see how some of this will be done. It changes some things to be more like in-game. Ryan PM 07:37, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Strong support - Why not? Makes it easier getting DIIs, and also unobtainable items by conventional means. Even if the DII might look a bit off compared to how it'd be expected in-game, it could still be used as a second-best option and I don't see anything bad enough about that to make me oppose. Ozank Cx 14:22, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Closed - There is consensus to allow images from the model viewer. The process for obtaining these pictures and the stylistic guidelines for these pictures will have to be determined in a later thread once the procedure is determined.

To address the issues brought up in the proposal, in order:

  • There is consensus that the lighting issues are not a sufficient enough downside to disallow the model viewer completely; this is a moot point if the new client changes the lighting to what is shown in the model viewer.
  • Anti-aliasing does not seem to be an issue.
  • Changing colors and whatnot would be one of the things for the thread that outlines the technical and stylistic specifications.
  • No one seems to have an issue with this despite the copious amounts of electrons spent discussing this in the past. It obviously goes without saying that if legal issues arise it's likely that Wikia staff will shut this down if they get a cease-and-desist letter from Jagex's lawyers.
  • People can use the model viewer now if it conforms to current image policy. Again, specifics should be proposed more details are known.

I will remove the model viewer section from Forum:Yew Grove/Previously rejected proposals. --LiquidTalk 04:36, July 28, 2015 (UTC)