Forum:2019 survey results

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Forums: Yew Grove > 2019 survey results

Hi everyone, you probably noticed the recent survey that was run on the wiki. The survey was run via a link/message in the sitenotice for approximately 10 days (from 8-18 June). There were 1661 responses to the survey.

You can view the results summary from Google forms here:

I have made a summary of the most helpful and frequently made suggestions here:

The survey this year was mainly focused on improving our content and features. I am hoping that we can use the survey results to inform our task setting in OSWF. If you have any suggestions about tasks or would like to help out with running the tasks then let me know! Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 20:05, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit source]

Comments and stuff - I'm gonna throw out some responses to some of the comments mentioned in the summary:

  • Monster strategies - We definitely need lower level guides. I like PvME and what they've done to our guides but information on rotations and focus on top tier gear is way too much for a lot of players. I've talked to them about lower level guides, and they seem interested but I guess nothing has come of it yet - we might have to take the initiative ourselves. I would want guides aimed at:
    • "you can probably get a kill with this but don't expect more than one or two a trip"
    • "the bare minimum for camping, your kill per hour is low but you probably won't die" AKA "desperate ironman looking for gear upgrades" (try to avoid requiring soul split if possible!)
    • "cheap but effective stuff that makes a kill pretty safe but not optimal" AKA "scared HCIM on a reaper task"
    • "here's the general optimal way to do this" - what PvME does
    • "speedstrats - absolute perfection for speed kills" - some of what PvME does
  • More monster strats - also more images or animations of attacks. Research more into having webm/mp4 support on the wiki.
  • Skill guides - I know Isobel did a lot of work on rewriting many guides a while back - how much have they been kept up to date with new updates? Did anyone do similar with the buyable skill guides? Tie this in with calculators.
  • Images - I think we're generally incredibly good with our images (thanks Parsons), but the point raised of having both male and female models is a good one. Equally I feel like there could be some improvements in random other image types - e.g. often with pets/familiars its hard to get a sense of scale from the main image; if there isn't an image of the follower with a player, who knows how big it is (particularly with things like Chick'arra - what's the scale of that w.r.t. the player/Kree'arra).
  • Calculators - we're in desperate need of a large review of most if not all calculators, to bring them up to spec. There may be significant benefit in expanding or reworking the calculator script entirely to support more of what we can get out of OOUI, or even just improving the layout (I basically threw together the layout we have no just before launch and I don't think it has been significantly altered since). Making it easier to build forms like Bestiary has - this is currently beyond the calculator script, but should be possible to build with it if expanded.
  • Maps - hopefully solvable with the Doogle Maps; I know focus is on the OSRS map right now (its a lot easier to get bulk data on item spawns and teleport points and so on with custom RuneLite plugins). The map extension/etc code is constantly being improved and that benefits both sites - just nothing directly focused on RS at the moment. Soon. (Want to take the lead on this? see #cartographers in discord.)
  • Bestiary - since this is may baby I ought to respond. Additional filters are feasible but both it and the armoury are up against the SMW query limit, so some sacrifices of queries would need to be made or we need to up the limit from 8. I presume the "needs updating" guy was looking at one of the old subpages, which have now been redirected.
  • Item pages - another thing I am highly involved in (certainly the creation of new ones). There's definitely a lot of room for fixing up a lot of item pages to be more explicit about the purpose. Even just a small rewrite to put what the item does in a few words in the first sentence is good. Stuff like this diff, just add a short summary to the first sentence, then have a detailed description later if necessary. Equipment should be more like "X is a tier 97 two-handed sword with a special effect. It can be obtained...". In general avoid putting the 'can be obtained' in the first sentence, and certainly not before a description of what it is/does. Remember that the article previews you have when you hover over a link only shows the first paragraph or part of the paragraph - what it does should be in that preview.
  • Drop tables - drop rates is an ongoing project with the RuneMetrics data, it just takes time for someone to sit down and work it out (and even longer to deal with the weirdness that some tables have). There's always plenty of problems we have with random niche items. We just need more time dedicated to sorting through what data we have (and maybe solicit more and get chisel updated). This probably isn't a good OSWF task. (See also #drop-logs in discord.)
  • Quests - better/more use of maps, and images of hard to click things, and so on. I know the images giving context to the story are nice, but we do need functional images in the guide itself more.
  • Ability bars especially revolution - definitely need to be updated for revolution++. The problem comes in two parts: calculating optimal revolution++ bars suffers from combinatorial explosion, and showing bars suffers from combinatorial explosion (on somewhat a lesser scale, but still a problem for a readable wikipage). The solution to the latter is to add filters to show what the best bars are for {this set of abilities}. The solution to the former is tougher if we want to be truely optimal and rigourous - if you're interesting in working on this with me, hit me up in discord.
  • Other
    • More focus on working through RuneScape:Maintenance/Obsolete articles, RuneScape:Maintenance/Articles in need of clean up, etc.
    • Longbows were directly replaced with shieldbows. I don't think we really need separate historical pages on them, a trivia point plus an old equipped image is probably enough, but I could be convinced otherwise.
    • Ironman - generally agreed with the idea of rolling out more ironman specific notes to pages. New calculators, etc.
    • Friends chat support - I've talked about this before somewhere, but I'll reiterate - I think it is a good idea to have suggested friends chats listed on pages (even if its just a central pages kinda like reddit has), even if it has many disclaimers, etc. FCs are often integral to many activities and are often unplayable without.
    • Search - I'm not sure how actionable much of these requests are. A lot of them are already present in our search anyway, we just need to have a prominent cheatsheet for it. We do need to fix the JSON output being present in searches and snippets, though.
    • Issues/Feedback form - I wrote like 90% of the code for this well before we forked, but put it on hold for some reason and then discontinued it when we began fork discussions, as a dedicated extension for issues would be a lot better than my kinda hacky JS+wikipage method.
    • Mobile - interesting to see some suggestions of what a mobile app would do over just using a browser, but I'm still not convinced its worthwhile over working on the mobile site directly. Speaking of, we need to put more time into improving the mobile site, implementing dark mode for it, etc.
    • Integration - some good suggestions here for small and large things to do. I do want to call out specifically the multi-account support point, and that it is important to do that.
    • Technical editing guides (lua, JS, CSS, DPL, SMW) are things that would be welcome. I should complete the ones I'm working on.

Potential OSWF tasks

  • Lower level monster guides - new, rewrites, reviews
  • Skilling guides - new, rewrites, reviews
  • Item page rewrites - mostly just an editorial job of copyediting pages, doesn't really need technical knowledge of the wiki. Hard to generate a list of pages, though.
  • Calculator reviews - not necessarily editing calculators (which usually needs a lot of technical knowledge about the wiki and coding), but using them for a variety of things and doing an in-depth review of what should be improved about the calculator, so that someone who knows how to edit them can fix later.
  • Disambiguation expansion - not directly related, but we have a lot of disambiguation pages that can and should be expanded into more descriptive pages. There's a lot of pages that are like "X could mean: (list of highly related things)", that should really just be expanded to have a proper description; for example Anima Core can definitely be expanded to summarise anima core and its mechanics, as well as dormant/refined.

More than I was expecting to write but oh well. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 06:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment - Regarding potential tasks, I had started rewriting the fletching guide before the survey, but now I feel like there's more incentive to. It's definitely something I will regularly run by people to make sure it's good stuff before saying "okay, this is the format." Badassiel 22:13, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment - Things where I'm not really sure how to fix the problem:

    • Skill training guides - some are up to date-ish but most could use some work. However, we never really decided how to revamp them after the initial work in Forum:Interactive skill training guides -- feedback wanted. Could probably do with some work alongside calculators for xp rates/required resources.
    • Calculators - some general suggestions about making them easier to use as well as needing an update and review of what we already have.
    • Perk info - not sure how we would work out things like perk chances or the intricate mechanics of Invention without a whole lot of testing or Jagex giving us the information.
    • Item spawn and shop restocking info is likely doable with some initial work for how to display the information on pages.
    • Discord partnering we need some interested Discords to work with. A mid level/beginning PVM clan might be a good way to expand our combat guides to be more inclusive of non-elite PVMers.
  • Tech stuff
    • Better image viewer
    • Searching: aside from adding more redirects - could we get a better search?
    • Darken the outline in the Achievements splash page.
    • Mobile app (or at least improve the experience of users on mobile)
    • Video guides (or at least use more gifs in relevant guides)
    • Feedback form
    • Collapsible side bar
    • VOS on wik header
    • Few other bits of technical feedback (on Anything else tab). Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 20:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment Some thoughts:

  • Money making guides: We could make the profit a range? For example default to +/- 5% but have it possible to override per method for methods that fluctuate a lot more, or where items generally don't sell for GE prices and stuff like that.
  • Calculators: I'd be willing to do work on the calculators, I have a lot of experience with ooui now.
  • Bestiary / Armory: It should be possible to add more filters as long as the total number is limited so that it doesn't exceed the 8. It won't allow more filters in total but more options on which ones to use. Haven't really looked at the js though and how it all works to be sure.
  • Lore: Not sure how wide the interest is but maybe make a page/book that is a chronological (or as much as possible) telling of all the RS lore? It'd be a lot of work and requires people that have a decent amount of lore knowledge but would be really cool.
  • Item pages:
    • That stores don't show in the where to buy worries me, I just redid that whole system. Anyone have a specific case? Unless it's a case of the template itself missing, which is entirely possible. We could make the dropped by and sold by one template, and just add it to all item pages. Just make the no results a lot smaller/cleaner.
    • we already have an item compare thing (attached to the infobox bonuses), I agree it could use improvement but it's there. We could also add it to it's own page, and incorporate the functionality in the armory.
  • Drop tables
    • As Gaz pointed out a lot of the rate stuff is just getting the data onto the wiki.
    • Aren't alch prices already shown, did I turn them off by default? I'm confused by that point.
    • An average GP per drop would be possible, would be easiest to implement in js, but it wouldn't be accurate for certain items.
    • For "total" drop rates we could add dummy lines to the upper most table maybe. Where instead of item it's the chance of hitting another of the drop tables, or something like that, although that might just be confusing.
  • Perks: Might be helpful to also have guides for players just starting out on what perks they should try to get first and at what levels it's worth trying, stuff like that.
  • Account linking:
    • A lot of the account linking things are great ideas, but a lot of it is also limited by the api's from Jagex, but there's still a lot we could do.
    • For things that take equipment and such into account, let me just say it's possible but takes a lot of work. See my work on a hit calculator.
  • Other:
    • I agree with Gaz that adding friends chats to pages would be helpful. The thing is how to determine which ones are appropriate etc, I can see this being a major arguing point between editors.
    • I agree that a reporting issues type thing would be nice, especially if there was a link/widget of some type on every page (maybe in the top/side bars), where you never have to leave the page. didn't even know that we had a way to report issues.
    • I don't see an app itself being feasible for us, it really requires dedicated people to maintain it (also not sure how many editors we have with actual app experience), plus getting an app onto the app store for apple users for example is difficult. I think just working on a mobile site/skin is a much better approach.
    • I agree that technical editing guides would be useful, I answer a lot of lua related questions on the discord.
    • I think having a requirements box (similar to the one for quests) on location pages is a great idea, allows people, especially newer players to quickly see what they need to go somewhere.
    • Also I agree that the daily challenge pages need updating, they could use a lot more info on the challenges as well. Such as if items need to be handed in, or if something counts towards the challenge or not and stuff like that. I've found myself wanting to know something about a daily challenge and finding no info on it.
    • Should be fairly easy to create a page that will load all updates after/between certain dates.
    • For treasure trails best equipment loadouts would be helpful, since I know some players have them down to an art and can do them in minutes.
    • Discord partners is a good idea, there's quite a few good discords out there with a lot of info that probably isn't on the wiki. Really all it takes is a few editors willing to go and work with discord groups.
    • For images in the search we'd need to make sure all the pages have page images, a lot of them don't right now. Not sure how they work internally but maybe have it use the first image on the page, or from the infobox if one is missing.
    • Being able to favorite pages is a great suggestion and I'm sure there are mediawiki implementations to do this. Could also combine this with personalisation options on the home page?
    • Back to top we could just do a sticky button. Seers headband 2 chathead.png Elessar2 (talk) 14:19, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Sahima...

  • Calculators definitely needs updating to be more user friendly. I'd like to work on this if y'all happy with that
    • Perhaps use tiles like on RS:OSWF to condense the page a little?
    • Appriopriate iconography and colours to make it easier to find subsections (ie. Herblore is Clean Guam green; Magic is Wizard hat (blue) blue - similar to the Skill training tile on the front page)
    • More consistent and clear naming conventions. It should reflect the purpose of the calculator even out of context, which some don't (e.g. Herbs, Potions, Other, Zombie impling looting)
      • Could do with consensus and possibly a policy on proper naming conventions for calculators
    • Using Herblore as an example, we should move the levelling calculators to Calculator:Herblore/Levelling, then use the Calculator:Herblore page as a summary of Herblore calculators for ease of linking via the in-game command, as it's easier to remember /wiki Category:Herblore than it is to remember /wiki Category:Herblore/Dose to flask conversion
  • Spoiler tags are a good idea, but I don't see how they can be implemented without littering the Wiki with spoiler tags. There's just so much story that's gated behind other content. Sometimes it's easy to avoid them using common sense, sometimes it's not ("Osman is the current Pharaoh of Menaphos"). Perhaps this is best left as an opt-in feature?
  • Item descriptions
    • By the looks of things, we're already working on this, but a common problem I find when browsing the Wiki is hovering over an item to find out what it does or what it is, and the first paragraph is describing where to find it or how to make it, then cuts off three words into the sentence describing what the item actually is. Information should be ordered by importance in the context of quick info.
  • Quests
    • Items required (and even recommended) for a quest are already listed in full at the beginning are they not?
      • Specifying bank breaks more explicitly and which items can be left in the bank would help players
    • Rewards images. These go out of date so quickly and are almost always incorrect because of it. I'll make a template for this so they can be updated without the need for a screenshot + image work, but it still relies on being updated regularly. Would we be able to get the information from other sources?
    • Might it be worth creating a RS:OSWF project to collect up-to-date quest run-through videos? They can either be added as embeds, or used to update information in the guide.
  • Player-owned farm
    • Player-owned farm is a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car clusterfuck, but I don't have any suggestions for improvement, so let's just embrace it for now.
    • The gheet mentions better organisation for the images, is this simply a case of moving the gallery images on pages like Red dragon (Player-owned farm) to the growth stage table on Player-owned farm?
  • App dev
    • I have industry experience in app development and would be willing to help out on that front.
    • Given the lack of need for native hardware and nothing being particularly computationally expensive, it's worth looking into cross-platform solutions for ease of development and maintenance across Android and iOS.
    • What is the app supposed to be offering that the website doesn't? I can see the benefit of it being easier to maintain than the mobile website, but we'd need to maintain that regardless, so it's just sounding like more work in the long run for little-to-no gain.
      • ...

   Sahima (Talk) 16:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)